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Old 07-19-2011, 09:16 PM   #11
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...and it doesn't diminish the fact that these people had an amazing encounter and feel so great about saving such an amazing creature. That is what had me tearing up...BEFORE I saw all of the amazing breaches.

You should have gotten a photo of yourself in tears and entered it in the water photography contest.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:19 PM   #12
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You should have gotten a photo of yourself in tears and entered it in the water photography contest.
LLOL! (*Literally* laughing out loud!) Good one, jack!

It was more of a glistening in the eyes, not sure Sage would've accepted it anyway.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:28 PM   #13
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Hey! I was going to do that! Crocodile tears...
Now you went ahead and spoiled it for me.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:52 PM   #14
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Hey! I was going to do that! Crocodile tears...
Now you went ahead and spoiled it for me.
You can be sure there were no crocodiles in Dap's "glistenings." (I really suspect it was more like Niagara, and I know there aren't any crocs in that deluge!)
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:08 PM   #15
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You can be sure there were no crocodiles in Dap's "glistenings." (I really suspect it was more like Niagara, and I know there aren't any crocs in that deluge!)
Had it made me bawl like a baby, I'd have admitted it. I'm not ashamed to be moved to tears.
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:42 PM   #16
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You may very well be right.

...at the same time, I think they are intelligent creatures, so who knows... but how would it know that humans would enjoy seeing that?
Good point. Humans have terrible egos.

I suppose my point is that everyone / everything lives with its own reality, or perspective; and looks out at the world from that point.

I can't really conceive of a lot of human's realities, let alone animal's. But, I am aware that I only see the world through my reality, and that I am the only one that exists in this reality.

So, it seems to make sense to put some kind of effort into imagining what other brains are working over, and try and run your logic in this scenario.

I would guess whale realities involve sound, fishing, and other whales. Maybe avoidance of big sharks. Crap growing on them. Swimming to the right place at the right time. Avoiding stuff that tangles them.

I doubt the idea that things live on top of the rocks they swim past, let alone that these things like seeing them smash into the water repeatedly, occurs to them.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:21 AM   #17
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I suppose my point is that everyone / everything lives with its own reality, or perspective; and looks out at the world from that point.

I can't really conceive of a lot of human's realities, let alone animal's. But, I am aware that I only see the world through my reality, and that I am the only one that exists in this reality.
Well put. I have to admit that I like living in my own little world...and letting those closest to me in (as in as they can get coming from their own reality). Sometimes the real world (what ever that is) breaks in anyway.

Too few people seem to realize that their own "reality" may not mesh with the real world. <--Was that a bit too egotistical for me to say?


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So, it seems to make sense to put some kind of effort into imagining what other brains are working over, and try and run your logic in this scenario.

I would guess whale realities involve sound, fishing, and other whales. Maybe avoidance of big sharks. Crap growing on them. Swimming to the right place at the right time. Avoiding stuff that tangles them.

I doubt the idea that things live on top of the rocks they swim past, let alone that these things like seeing them smash into the water repeatedly, occurs to them.
I'd like to believe that I don't fall into the trap of anthropomorphisms (at least not too often), but I do think that we and animals are not so distinctly different from each other...I guess I think there has to be some kind of spectrum...we are emotionally more similar to a chimpanzee than a worm for example.

I swear I've seen a cat become embarrassed. My one cat shows signs of jealousy. Is this an accurate perception on my part or not?

Also, I think of dolphins and whales as being intelligent and curious about these creatures that live on the "rocks they swim past" and enter their world in boats and scuba gear. It is hard to dismiss the possibility of a connection between a whale and some humans...at the same time, I still agree that to truly be "thanking" the humans, the whale would have to try to figure out our perspective of reality--something we've just admitted is very hard for most *humans* to do.

It was still a moving video...and a beautiful sight.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:27 AM   #18
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I'd like to believe that I don't fall into the trap of anthropomorphisms (at least not too often), but I do think that we and animals are not so distinctly different from each other...I guess I think there has to be some kind of spectrum...we are emotionally more similar to a chimpanzee than a worm for example
Dap, I truly believe that you are onto something. The fact of the matter is, we do not know at what point our behavior is determined by biology/evolution or by culture (or, to put it another way, how much of culture is actually hard-wired into what we think, believe and do?).

I began to think about this in regard to the built environment. At what point in our evolutionary history did we begin to change our immediate environment to suit our needs? And don't other creatures also make changes to the environment to suit their needs? It would appear that our urge to change our environment to suit our needs goes far back in the evolutionary family tree, and probably pre-dates us as a species.

The fact is, we don't know that our reaction to other creatures is, in fact, culturally-based anthropomorphism. We do not know at what point in our evolutionary history our beliefs or perceptions transitioned from biology to culture, or to what degree they have become culturally based. I think it is possible that much of what we regard as culture has a basis in our evolutionary history, including aesthetics, religion, morality, etc.

This is not to say that we are simply acting out a sort of biological social determinism and are helpless to change our behavior, because history demonstrates that we are capable of adapting our behavior to benefit society and the environment. I am not a scientist and only wonder about these things, all I am saying is that we don't know. I just don't think that it is as easy as dismissing our feelings about other creatures as mere anthropomorphism.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:12 AM   #19
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I am not a scientist and only wonder about these things, all I am saying is that we don't know. I just don't think that it is as easy as dismissing our feelings about other creatures as mere anthropomorphism.
I am not a scientist either...and I don't want to dismiss our feelings and suppositions about other creatures. I definitely think that we (humans in general) underestimate their intelligence and ability to communicate.

This does make for an interesting discussion.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:24 AM   #20
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I definitely think that we (humans in general) underestimate their intelligence and ability to communicate.
I think that you are right on this as well, dap.
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