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Old 01-21-2012, 12:47 PM   #11
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[QUOTE=Equilibrium;104274]Here’s the book, ‘Yellowstone Wolves: A Chronicle of the Animal, the People, and the Politics', by Cat Urbigkit, Amazon.com: Yellowstone Wolves: A Chronicle of the Animal, the People, and the Politics (9780939923700): Cat Urbigkit: Books If you're tight for $$$ going to school and raising 2 little ones.... you could try a library or I could loan you mine. I did get a lot out of reading it but it's not 1 I'd use for reference or read again.
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I'll have to check the local libraries for it thanks.

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To the 1st reviewer.... it's a Gray wolf subspecies not a Canadian wolf subspecies. As an aside and since you’re a parent with 2 little boys…. what parent would let a 12 year old out alone shepherding sheep (of all things) without a firearm>>>? 12 year olds are plenty old enough to learn how to use a 22 LR properly and Urbigkit knew a pack of the larger Canadian wolves was out and about eye-balling her flock. That argument that these wolves pose a threat to children didn’t cut it for me when I read it…. parents endanger their children when they send them out to protect flocks unarmed. I don't know about you but….. I have no great love for irresponsible parents OR ranchers
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Agreed I started shooting a 22 about that age but it would take quite a "set" to face down a wolf in the dark at 12 with a pea shooter!

If this subject really interests you, you might want to check out what the Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd have to say. There’s considerable bias there too which I’m sure most will spot but…. they do have some valid points as do the defenders of Yellowstone grizzlies because now come spring…. our bears are competing with Canadian wolves for what’s left of elk calves. There’s been a ripple effect that’s probably not gonna stop at the Mexican border. I'm afraid the Canadian wolves are well capable of outcompeting Mexico’s Mexican and Red wolves for scarce resources and they’re also capable of breeding with those much smaller wolves that are indigenous to their country. Unfortunately... offspring would be about as sterile as offspring of a breeding between an Irish wolfhound and the much smaller Irish setter…. they wouldn’t be.
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I'll check out the FNYEH I'm sure they probably have the same view as the local hunters here in Ohio about the recent explosion of the coyote population. There has been a study about Grizzlies and other scavengers benifting from the wolves in yellowstone. 03.21.2005 - Wolves alleviate impact of climate change on food supply, finds new study Take from it what you will.
As for the Red Wolf they are having enough trouble being hybridized out of existence by the coyotes.Red Wolves of Alligator River: Red Wolf Hybridization And speaking of hybrid vigor,Northeastern Coyote genetic makeup and down south this article is the best I've found on the subject so far, PLoS ONE: Hybridization among Three Native North American Canis Species in a Region of Natural Sympatry

Oopsie… “but if I start kissing guys and cleaning their firearms my wife is going to have some questions”. Maybe just kiss and clean firearms of the hunters that are women only then.
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Well I better start kissing somebody cause there are 2 weeks left in the season and I haven't filled a deer tag yet
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:42 AM   #12
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Our boys all started with bb guns in Cub Scouts in 1st grade. They layed on their bellies and shot at targets. I think by 3rd or 4th grade most moved onto 22s at camps. When they all crossed over to Boy Scouts, I’m pretty sure they were all using 22 LRs. I dunno much about guns. I thought 1 of their firearms instructors said a 22 could kill a person so I assumed it could kill a wolf too. Guess not…. oopsie…. tells ya how much I know about firearms. I don’t remember reading her 12 year old kid being out there in the dark…. if any of our boys had to shepherd plump and juicy mutton on the hoof in the dark with a pack of Canadian wolves in the vicinity….. mine would be in a reconditioned “shark cage” with their 22s by their side but that’s just me.
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The Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd is definitely a “friend” to hunters.
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This might ultimately prove to be a greater threat to the survival of Red wolves than hybridization, http://library.fws.gov/Pubs4/endangered_red_wolves.pdf, “Since the red wolf’s diet does not consist of large ungulates, such as elk, bison, or moose, group or pack hunting is probably not necessary. Most hunting by red wolves is believed to be done individually or in pairs.” A similar concern existed for the Rocky Mountain Wolf given its diet didn’t consist of elk either. We have now successfully introduced a subspecies of Gray Wolf that’s diet does primarily consist of Elk…. the Canadian Timber Wolf…. that is now hunting Elk in groups and packs while expanding its artificial range to the south, west, and southwest. There’s no denying they’re all Gray wolves but…. I’m really worried our failure to acknowledge the unique ecosystem services provided by each subspecies will have far reaching consequences.
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Here’s Chris Wilmers’ dissertation which was “submitted in partial satisfaction of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy”, http://nature.berkeley.edu/getzlab/d...WilmersDis.pdf. It’s referenced but not linked in the article published in 2005 that was linked. I’m actually familiar with the research that attempted to show AGW’s increasing affect on regional predator assemblages. I’m just gonna pull a paragraph and a few sentences, “Using statistical models, the researchers calculated that in scenarios where wolves are absent, carrion availability is reduced by 27 percent in March and by 66 percent in April. When wolves are around, however, the availability of carrion is only reduced by 4 percent in March and 11 percent in AprilIn neither scenario did the presence of wolves have a significant impact on the availability of carrion during the early and mid-winter months, when food shortage was not a factor.” And, “We also expand upon the models of Miller et al. (2002) and Jensen and Miller (2001) by incorporating human hunters into our model. By explicitly keeping track of each year class of elk, we are able to tease out the differential effects of human hunters and wolves on elk population dynamics and carrion availability to scavengers.” Coupla things out the gate about this weather analysis using “scenarios” up to the year 2000 that concern me but OMMV…. where’s the hypothesis…. the observations and…. real data>>>? Did he rely exclusively upon the models of contributing authors to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s Third Assessment Report? Data from the IPCC’s 3rd Assessment Report were predicted from economic models based on 35 different scenarios. Their scenarios ranged from “pessimistic to optimistic” but…. all predicted some level of anthropogenic global warming depending on the type of scenario considered… in this instance…. predator prey and wolf ungulate models based on an assumption of AGW… re: continued declining snow depth. Not so shockingly…. his 2 models did show top predators exerting significant influence on animals at lower food chain levels therefore it was “suggested” that wolf kills would temper the “potentially devastating effects of climate-related carrion shortages on scavengers.” Scavengers aren’t all that’s dependent on a functional Yellowstone ecosystem…. We can’t just keep blaming everything on AGW…. we can’t. All models expanding upon the IPCC’s predictions of future climate, Climate Feedback: Predictions of climate, assume AGW is real by projecting a warming of 2 to 8-11.5°F…. this subjective certainty “study” used “estimates” instead of hard data to support the “reintroduction” of the Gray Wolf as a climate change buffer capable of mitigating “boom and bust” population cycling when, “In fact there are no predictions by IPCC at all. And there never have been. The IPCC instead proffers “what if” projections of future climate that correspond to certain emissions scenarios. There are a number of assumptions that go into these emissions scenarios. They are intended to cover a range of possible self consistent “story lines” that then provide decision makers with information about which paths might be more desirable. But they do not consider many things like the recovery of the ozone layer, for instance, or observed trends in forcing agents.
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I’ve been trained on how to use the merged data set from the Hadley Centre and the Climate Research Unit provided by the IPCC’s 4th Assessment Report. Me personally…. I think it’d be in the best interests of public health if we were humble… objective uncertainty and hard data really should be used a tad bit more in “research” because…. well…. models don’t simulate all aspects of climate and…. any “output” from exploratory scenarios is a direct result of any and all assumptions used to establish values. Just 1 or 2 big snow events can really throw off a pre-determined scenario anticipating a continued decline in snow depth. Assumptions of AGW can result in spending billions of $$$ on wild goose chases solving the wrong problems and ultimately…. the spending of even more $$$ attempting to right ecological wrongs.
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Well I better start kissing somebody cause there are 2 weeks left in the season and I haven't filled a deer tag yet” Ya know what Larry the Cable Guy says, right? Git R Done!!!
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:56 AM   #13
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Just a few quickies I found yahooing….
Wolves Driving Down Yellowstone Elk Numbers: Study | articles | news, “A new study shows that the wolves of Yellowstone are affecting elk populations in very surprising ways. Since 1995, elk populations have been declining. It was estimated in 1995 that elk populations in the northern range numbered somewhere between 17,000 and 19,000. In the three winters prior to 2008, the estimated elk population has dropped to somewhere between 6,279 and 6,738.
The numbers are from a study from Montana State University showing that the presence of wolves has caused elk to alter their behavior towards the point that elk are birthing fewer calves. The obvious observation of the effect of wolves on elk population is the fact that wolves kill elk on a regular basis for food. But the constant danger of having your taut, fleshy neck ripped to shreds by wolf teeth have made the elk more paranoid, causing them to browse for food in more sheltered areas such as shrubs or low tree branches. This in turn means that elk being hunted by wolves are eating less, and receiving less nutrition, according to the study from Scott Creel, ecology professor at MSU.”
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Biologists note a decline in Yellowstone National Park's elk population - latimes.com, “Figures released Wednesday showed the Yellowstone herd down to a minimum of 4,635 elk. That's a 24% drop from last winter, and wildlife officials said the decline was unexpected because the herd in recent years showed signs of stabilizing.
"Either we counted them poorly this year, predator effects were stronger, the big snow event made us miss more elk or more elk were harvested," Park Service biologist Doug Smith said. "Usually the best answer in ecology is all of the above.”
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http://www.yellowstonepark.com/2011/...ife-predators/, “Finally, it’s important to give a nod to the most important element of all-weather. The importance of weather to ungulate populations such as elk cannot be overstated. Hard winters kill elk. Drought and the resulting poor feed kills elk. Weather is the most effective predator of all-without any predators, weather would still account for high elk mortality. Today, seven predators-wolves, black bears, grizzly bears, coyotes, mountain lions, man and, most important, weather-account for elk mortality. But even when elk die of starvation, their carcasses are used. The scavengers of the land-from coyotes to crows, to eagles-use this fuel and the cycle begins all over again.”
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
This might ultimately prove to be a greater threat to the survival of Red wolves than hybridization, http://library.fws.gov/Pubs4/endangered_red_wolves.pdf, “Since the red wolf’s diet does not consist of large ungulates, such as elk, bison, or moose, group or pack hunting is probably not necessary. Most hunting by red wolves is believed to be done individually or in pairs.” A similar concern existed for the Rocky Mountain Wolf given its diet didn’t consist of elk either. We have now successfully introduced a subspecies of Gray Wolf that’s diet does primarily consist of Elk…. the Canadian Timber Wolf…. that is now hunting Elk in groups and packs while expanding its artificial range to the south, west, and southwest. There’s no denying they’re all Gray wolves but…. I’m really worried our failure to acknowledge the unique ecosystem services provided by each subspecies will have far reaching consequences.
I've been thinking about that map of wolf subspecies for awhile wondering what would prompt so many subspecies? AHA moment PREY SPECIALIZATION! I'm sure it's not the soul reason but I know the wolf population on Isle Royale in Michigan specializes in hunting moose but I'm still not sure why irremotus would not be hunting elk. Perhaps they didn't travel in packs as large as occidentalis I don't know I'm peeling back layers my curiosity is sufficiently peaked now.
I saw this article the other day and thought I'd throw another log on the fire.Using Wolves to Control Elk Population at CO Wildlife Refuge? | Field & Stream
I have to say this is starting to change my perspective.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:04 PM   #15
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I get those "AHA" moments too.... they usually break my heart. I do think I know the reason why irremotus' diet didn't include elk from poking around... not exactly an "AHA" moment as you call it.... more of a "slaps self up side of head" moment. I'm not telling.... I wouldn't want to deprive you of a "slap yourself up the side of the head" moment like I had. Anywhooo.... it's kinda obvious they knew the Canadian Timber Wolf's diet was considerably more "diverse" than that of the Rocky Mountain Wolf's diet. They knew the sheer number and diversity of species included in occidentalis' diet strongly suggested flexibility well beyond that of irremotus and other subspecies. They knew occidentalis hunted in packs which gave it an advantage that in and of itself would render them capable of reducing the abundance of a wide variety of locally native species yet.... they introduced it anyway.... why? The Candian Timber Wolf isn't native to the Yellowstone ecosystem.... it has few predators other than man. Considering how well they've "adapted" to their new home away from home..... there's no denying they've got the potential to become 1 of the most disastrous invasions in the history of Yellowstone by drastically reducing the abundance of species leaving a devastated ecosystem in their wake so what's your "gut" on why they did this>>>>? I spent a little time trying to follow the $$$ on it. Usually the modus operandi pops right up in all of about 10 minutes of yahooing but.... this time it didn't. BTW.... I don't think it had that much to do with advocating for climate change legislation.... I think that's just Wilmers' out there opportunistically scoring brownie points with the NSF.
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:43 PM   #16
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I wish people would just leave nature alone. Wolves are the sign of a healthy ecosystem. I think de listing wolves is retarded, esspecially with our crashing moose populations, moose are in decline because of deer, deer are controlled by wolves, areas thart still have healthy moose are inhabited by wolves, wolves thin the ranks of the moose, allowing healthier moose. Obviously we havent learned from the times of lewis and clark. I think by the time I'm an old man moose and wolves will be extinct in MN and probably everywhere else too. People will have to go to zoos to see them and look at books.

Sad.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:27 PM   #17
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"Wolves are the sign of a healthy ecosystem." How profound but.... it really depends.... it depends on which subspecies of wolf we dumped into which ecosystem.
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"I think de listing wolves is retarded" It depends on too many variables to paint with such broad brush strokes.
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"Obviously we havent learned from the times of lewis and clark." No.... tell me this ain't so.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:48 PM   #18
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De listing a top predator such as the gray wolf is going to have MAJOR impact on the yellow stone park area and MN too... For example beavers were not seen in the yellowstone ecosystem until the 90s the year wolves came back, as we all know beaver create valuable habatat for wildlife and people. Reason elk were eating all the trees beavers needed until wolves came. I don't think the government really cares about much of anything expect themselves... Whats going to happen is wolves will once again number in only the dozens... animals will die or starve and entire enviornments will parish.

For this reason I think the reintroduction of wolves was in itself a crazy idea if people are not willing to coexist with them. its cruelty to animals is what it is.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:58 PM   #19
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De-listing isn't going to drive wolves back into extinction. Last year Montana opened it's first wolf hunting season and 166 wolves were harvested along with 93 non hunting related wolf deaths but the population still grew by 15% See: World BulletinHunting claims hundreds of wolves in US rockies | Science & Environment | . Since the Reintroduction almost as many wolves have been killed by ranchers and government agents as there are in total now but their populations have still managed to grow and expand into Oregon and Washington. The population numbers have even shown stabilization in the last 5 years signifiying they have potentially reached biotic carrying capacity http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/...-Area_2011.pdf. The problem is Social carrying capacity we all would love for wolves to have the run of the place but thats just not going to happen. The point is that regulated hunting has never driven a species to extinction and even though they are delisted if federal government will step in and put them back on the ESA such is the way with such high profile cute and fuzzy critters no one cares about the Delhi Fly or riffle shell mussel.
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