Cut back Lonicera sempervirens?

[TimSaupe]

I have two of them (cult. 'Major Wheeler', purchased last summer) trained up an arbor and when I had purchased them they were a bit straggly . . . should I cut them back this spring? Or would I be better served to leave them alone and they will fill in themselves?

Thoughts? Opinions?

[will-o-wisp]

I always cut mine back and shape them a bit in the spring. You can lose the first bloom that way since they flower first on last years growth but will soon bloom again on new growth.
They will probably fill in themselves but the shaping helps direct the growth on an arbor.

[TheLorax]

Please do not be upset with me for commenting. I believe your 'Major Wheeler' cultivar has the non-native Lonicera standishii in its parentage and it is quite evident to me Sunlight Gardens is well aware of this-
Sunlight Gardens -Lonicera sempervirens 'Major Wheeler',Major Wheeler Coral Honeysuckle

The native range of L. standishii is China not Japan. L. standishii is capable of hybridizing with our native species. The straight species has naturalized in several states.

[TimSaupe]

Hmm - I see nothing in your link that says it's *not* native. In fact, they label it as native.

If it were a hybrid, the latin name would note it (or should note it) as such - and it's not a hybrid.

I try to research things as best I can; but of course I do make mistakes. But I don't see where this plant is not just a cultivar of the native coral honeysuckle.

And if you were to find an error in something I have planted, it wouldn't upset me But I will kindly disagree with you on this one.

[Staff]

Cultivar

The word cultivar is not interchangeable with the botanical rank of variety, nor with the legal term " plant variety".

Glossary: International Development Research Centre

Cultivar: A culti-vated var-iety. A cultivar is usually a pure line, a clone, or a hybrid variety, and it is genetically uniform, and genetically inflexible. A cultivar consequently cannot respond to selection pressures during cultivation. (See also: Ecotype, Landrace, Micro-evolution).

Cultigen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...These "man-made" or anthropogenic plants are, for the most part, plants of commerce that are used in horticulture, agriculture and forestry. Because cultigens are defined by their mode of origin and not by where they are growing, plants meeting this definition remain cultigens whether they are naturalised in the wild, deliberately planted in the wild, or growing in cultivation.

Cultigens arise in the following ways: selections of variants from the wild or cultivation including vegetative sports (aberrant growth that can be reproduced reliably in cultivation); plants that are the result of plant breeding and selection programs; genetically modified plants (plants modified by the deliberate implantation of genetic material); and graft-chimaeras (plants grafted to produce mixed tissue, the graft material possibly from wild plants, special selections, or hybrids).

[Equilibrium]

They're not labeling it as native... they're labeling it as a cultivar. They were honest about it not being a native but misleading at the same time. The ' and the ' with the name of Major Wheeler between tells you it's a registered cultivar that was deliberately altered or selected by humans. All cultivars are cultigens... of garden origin meaning they are the result of artificial selection. Cultivars are not an indigenous species. It's not us making the mistakes... it's THEM misleading us or flat out being dishonest about a plant's parentage like what Sunlight tried to pull here with Lonicera 'Goldflame' IMHO, Sunlight Gardens -Lonicera x heckrottii,Goldflame Honeysuckle, "but whatever its parentage... You must plant this where the perfume can permeate the air and drift your way, preferably in full sun and average soil."

[TimSaupe]

Okay, okay okay . . . I know that cultivars are man-made. I know they are manipulated. But if it is a hybrid, I thought the correct notation was to include an 'x' in the latin . . . I'm pretty sure that is correct (but I could be wrong).

I'm going to disagree with you Equi; the first option in the yellow box is clearly checked as native. No where on that page do they mention a mixed parentage. And if this plant, Lonicera sempervirens, has been tweaked to produce more blooms or have thicker foliage, that does not make it a hybrid. At least not in my book.

At the end of the day, I haven't seen anything that tells me this plant is a hybrid. I *thought* I had researched it well enough to know what I was buying . . . but perhaps not.

I just wanted to know if I should cut it back this spring. Apologies for causing such a ruckus . . .

[swamp thing]

You're right, it's not a hybrid, Dirr's book lists 'Major Wheeler' as a cultivar of Lonicera sempevirens. Supposedly Wheeler found it growing somewhere (a selection) and decided to clone a bunch of them.

Questions for anyone:
If it was found in the wild, presumably native, is it not a native plant?

Can't a cultivar be a native? At least to where it was found?

Lots of our native plants and trees have named cultivars that are clones of a specimen found in nature, not necessarily selected from a breeding program, right?

Tallamy doesn't seem to have a problem with cultivars of native plants, but says there haven't been any studies on the issue. There's a difference between trying to restore a large property with the correct plant community and a suburban garden, I think too. Ideally, all our gardens and properties would be locally correct, but to what extent is that possible? Seems like it would be a different answer for different places, and different people.

[TimSaupe]

To me, if it stays true to the straight species I see nothing wrong with cultivars.

When I first started doing this, before I knew about native plant sales and growers and such, I was left with having to shop the hardware stores and commercial growers who do not sell many natives.

So . . . I have Magnus Echinacea and Goldsturm Rudbeckia and Jacob Cline Monarda. I have others as well and they stay true enough to the straight species for me. The ruby-throats went ga-ga over the Jacob Cline this past year so they must be doing something right. The insects loved them too. So they accomplish what I need them to do.

Now, I buy as much straight as I can. I look forward to the native plant sales in the spring

[Hedgerowe]

Apologies for causing such a ruckus . . .

I don't think that you have caused a ruckus, I think that you have generated a healthy discussion. It happens to be one where opinions are still being sorted out and I, for one, love this sort of discussion. I always learn so much. I say, let the well-informed opinions fly!