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Old 06-04-2010, 09:10 PM   #11
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dapjwy> the old carpet is going to impact the environment one way or the other. If you don’t use it…. it’ll end up in the landfill and you’ll end up buying something to use under your water feature which adds to “consumerism”. Trade-offs…. It’s all about trade-offs. The only thing is you need to either sit down and remove as many staples as you can find…. I’ve known people who’ve done this or…. make sure the staples poking out are facing down or you’ll end up with a gazillion leaks driving you batty. Lemme know if you want any info on liners since I’ve used non-traditional pond liners and it saved me mucho $$$. BTW…. The “non-traditional” liners last just as long as traditional pond liners. ebw78745> ya…. I have a “thang” for iris so Schreiner’s was a narcotic source. I haven’t added any more since I’ve slowly and surely been replacing my ornamentals with edibles but I’ve got a few pockets of iris that’ll be left alone as long as I don’t end up with any borer problems and well… you know how it goes…. once an iris junky…. always an iris junky so who knows…. I might slop another pig trough in the ground some day for a Japanese runner. Hey!!! Don’t hit garage sales and spend $$$…. hit up your friends and family for their old t-shirts, jeans, and towels that are in such bad condition they’d be embarrassed taking em to Good Will or hit up garbage cans on garbage day. I have no pride.... I hit garbage cans in hose and heels all the time on the way to work. I leave early on garbage days.... just in case I need extra time. The “good stuff” is rolled up and sticking out of garbage cans. You can pretty much assume the jute rugs are “safe”. Seriously…. you don’t need to spend any money.
Thanks, Equilibrium, I like your take on trade-offs.

I've also thought about using shingles from the roof when we have it replaced. I just don't want to do anything that will negatively impact the immediate environment. Although, I'm still finding all sorts of trash on the property. It seems they burned all kinds of things that they shouldn't have. There is one spot that still hasn't quite grown back---that makes me wonder! So, as I clean up that kind of stuff, I don't want to be contributing to the problem by using the wrong thing.

I'm open to suggestions about non-traditional liners. Pass them along.

~smile~ Thanks again.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:24 PM   #12
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Umm.... using old roofing shingles would be pushing it. My property is so laced with nasties left from the farm gas tanks and anything else they could pitch out a window and paint cans that were tossed all over that I can't grow any food in anything but raised vegetable beds and above ground containers. Do yourself a favor and test that spot that's not growing back. Gimme some time to look up notes on the liners. Be back.
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:15 PM   #13
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Umm.... using old roofing shingles would be pushing it. My property is so laced with nasties left from the farm gas tanks and anything else they could pitch out a window and paint cans that were tossed all over that I can't grow any food in anything but raised vegetable beds and above ground containers. Do yourself a favor and test that spot that's not growing back. Gimme some time to look up notes on the liners. Be back.

Thanks, I'm a patient man...usually.

I should probably test it; it is black ash... not soil, but still.
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:14 AM   #14
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Sometimes patience doesn't pay... I did't find my file from a coupla years ago and... I fell asleep. Sorry.... I had some good links with people debating epdm v. roofing liner. We're talking pass the popcorn and sit back and read them go round and round. On one side of the debate were people who had shelled out big bucks buying "official" EPDM pondgard liners and people selling and/or distributing official pond liners claiming no chemicals known to be harmful to an aquatic environment were used in making “official” pond liners. On the other side of the debate were “skeptics”. The prePONDerance of anecdotal evidence that aquatic animals can and did survive in roofing liner ponds didn't universally prove there wouldn't be any long term harm to pond inhabitants but.... the short term studies produced by the manufacturers of "official" pond liners didn't assure the long term safety of pond inhabitants either. None of the EPDM advocates could be pinned down to answer why their roofing liners weren't fish safe other than that they weren't tested for fish "friendliness" and there'd be no manufacturer guarantee if a roofing liner was used for a water feature application. But.... when asked about the safety of their roofing liners, nobody would say chemicals known to be harmful were used in the manufacturing process... that would have had unintended consequences since we humans live under their roofing liners while we plop our fish and frogs in their pond liners. Somebody did state cure times were longer and that talc was rinsed off their pondgard product at the factory. I'm thinking that if a manufacturer gives two identical products different names then.... rinses the talc off one, lets it sit on a shelf "curing" for a few months, then stamps it pondgard.... that product can be sold for a higher price. I think P.T. Barnum explained it for everybody. I've been using .60 rinsed roofing liner ever since. Unless you've got extra money to burn buying "official" pond liners, I'd run around housing or rehab sites asking for decent sized scraps of roofing liner from Georgia Pacific, Firestone, or Johns Manville for smaller water features and buy their roofing liner for larger projects. Those companies manufacture pond liners AND roofing liners... my bet is their pond divisions have a higher profit margin but their products come off the same production lines. I'm convinced the differences are all marketing.... and the presence or absence of talc. Talc doesn't have to be rinsed off at a factory. We can rinse off talc with a garden hose and some dish washing soap. Gotta run to soccer play offs.
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:15 AM   #15
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Sometimes patience doesn't pay... I did't find my file from a coupla years ago and... I fell asleep. Sorry.... I had some good links with people debating epdm v. roofing liner. We're talking pass the popcorn and sit back and read them go round and round. On one side of the debate were people who had shelled out big bucks buying "official" EPDM pondgard liners and people selling and/or distributing official pond liners claiming no chemicals known to be harmful to an aquatic environment were used in making “official” pond liners. On the other side of the debate were “skeptics”. The prePONDerance of anecdotal evidence that aquatic animals can and did survive in roofing liner ponds didn't universally prove there wouldn't be any long term harm to pond inhabitants but.... the short term studies produced by the manufacturers of "official" pond liners didn't assure the long term safety of pond inhabitants either. None of the EPDM advocates could be pinned down to answer why their roofing liners weren't fish safe other than that they weren't tested for fish "friendliness" and there'd be no manufacturer guarantee if a roofing liner was used for a water feature application. But.... when asked about the safety of their roofing liners, nobody would say chemicals known to be harmful were used in the manufacturing process... that would have had unintended consequences since we humans live under their roofing liners while we plop our fish and frogs in their pond liners. Somebody did state cure times were longer and that talc was rinsed off their pondgard product at the factory. I'm thinking that if a manufacturer gives two identical products different names then.... rinses the talc off one, lets it sit on a shelf "curing" for a few months, then stamps it pondgard.... that product can be sold for a higher price. I think P.T. Barnum explained it for everybody. I've been using .60 rinsed roofing liner ever since. Unless you've got extra money to burn buying "official" pond liners, I'd run around housing or rehab sites asking for decent sized scraps of roofing liner from Georgia Pacific, Firestone, or Johns Manville for smaller water features and buy their roofing liner for larger projects. Those companies manufacture pond liners AND roofing liners... my bet is their pond divisions have a higher profit margin but their products come off the same production lines. I'm convinced the differences are all marketing.... and the presence or absence of talc. Talc doesn't have to be rinsed off at a factory. We can rinse off talc with a garden hose and some dish washing soap. Gotta run to soccer play offs.
Lib,

Thank you so much for all of your time and for the information. I will look into it!

I bought several pond liners from CL at a great price. I'm hoping that overlapping them will work when I dig out a streambed into the hillside. There will be small drop offs and maybe a larger waterfall or two. (This is still in the planning stages and I'm not sure when I'll actually do it--other projects have to take precedence.) I do want a larger, deeper section of the stream (or a pond) and may need to get a bigger liner for that part. So, I'm interested in your roof liner idea.

What I'm trying to figure out is for the underlayment. The old carpet will likely work...but, as for the asphalt shingles from an old roof, I guess I thought that the rain washing off our roofs must be washing anything harmful into the water table...I've never read about banning asphalt shingles...but, then again, I've never looked into it either. For clarification, the shingles would be used as an underlayment, not as the liner itself. Assuming I go that route.

Have fun at the soccer play-off.

dapjwy
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:53 PM   #16
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Overlapping liners probably isn't going to work. We can overlap underlayment no problem. I checked into roofing shingles once.... right after we built our house and all the grit started coming down the downspouts looking like black sand. I freaked thinking our shingles were defective. Turns out that was normal. What I didn't know was that we could have bought recycled roofing shingles.... I learned that when I was having a heart attack thinking our new roof was bad. I think I'd use old carpets for an underlayment instead of roofing shingles and just let those be recycled. Old roofing shingles can be recycled into a lot of things. The games this weekend are local which is fantastic since I'm home to pull more weeds!!! I did have a good time.... I ended up sitting next to the grandma of a player from the other team. She was from TN and started talking "chicken" with me when she saw me reading poultry catalogs. Then parents of another kid on the other team sitting behind us jumped in. They were from TN too so it ended up being a poultry party with us all comparing notes on warm v. cold weather chicken raising!!! Oh man oh man.... I've got a lot to learn about chickens. These people have forgotten more than I've even known about chickens. Since we were on a home field I got a chance to check out how all the swallows and robins were doing in the shelter. We all walked over and checked out the nests which was fun. Here we all were standing on the picnic tables getting better peeks at the babies when we should have been watching our kids.
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Old 06-06-2010, 12:35 AM   #17
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Overlapping liners probably isn't going to work. We can overlap underlayment no problem. I checked into roofing shingles once.... right after we built our house and all the grit started coming down the downspouts looking like black sand. I freaked thinking our shingles were defective. Turns out that was normal. What I didn't know was that we could have bought recycled roofing shingles.... I learned that when I was having a heart attack thinking our new roof was bad. I think I'd use old carpets for an underlayment instead of roofing shingles and just let those be recycled. Old roofing shingles can be recycled into a lot of things. The games this weekend are local which is fantastic since I'm home to pull more weeds!!! I did have a good time.... I ended up sitting next to the grandma of a player from the other team. She was from TN and started talking "chicken" with me when she saw me reading poultry catalogs. Then parents of another kid on the other team sitting behind us jumped in. They were from TN too so it ended up being a poultry party with us all comparing notes on warm v. cold weather chicken raising!!! Oh man oh man.... I've got a lot to learn about chickens. These people have forgotten more than I've even known about chickens. Since we were on a home field I got a chance to check out how all the swallows and robins were doing in the shelter. We all walked over and checked out the nests which was fun. Here we all were standing on the picnic tables getting better peeks at the babies when we should have been watching our kids.

I'm glad you had such a great time "talking chicken", learning a lot, and cheicknig out the babies. Cool that you found people to share with.

It is good to hear that shingles can be recyled. The roof will not likely be replaced any time soon, but the old carpet is ready and waiting.

As to overlapping the liner, I hope I'm not fooling myself, but I'm sure I've read about doing just that. If there is a drop off and I can overlap it where the waterfall is, I'm thinking it should work--water won't run uphill. I'll do more research.

If I can't overlap them, then I'll find another use for them.

I gotta get to bed. I got home late and had to unwind...but, now I'm beat. Catch you all later.
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