My School's Green Energy Park / Serpentine Grassland Garden? - Page 3 - Wildlife Gardeners

Podo · 12-26-2018, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by havalotta

How large an area between the shed and building? Is there really a need to just cut through against a wall or disturbing students by windows? Alternative route? See below:

This comment brings to mind that it could possibly be shepherd's-purse. See: https://www.invasiveplantatlas.org/s....html?sub=5222

Now that could possibly be what's called chamomile! see: https://www.ediblewildfood.com/chamomile.aspx

Attachment 46235

Thank you for your concerns. The area between the shed and the building is possibly 6 or 7, maybe 8, feet from the wall to the shed. The shed's entrance is also facing the wall, and it's used a bunch. The windows are pretty high up and they're not the easiest to look through. They look into the two other engineering classrooms we use and go through. The classroom entrance path leads into robotics and soldering, and then that classroom leads to the hall where the other classrooms, green energy and networking, can be reached. I'll take pictures when I can, which is after my winter break is over.

That plant is definitely Shepherd's Purse! Thank you for identifying that for me. Reading about Shepherd's Purse, it grows in the exact conditions I've described the site to be. Mesic to dry, full sun. It's height changes on soil fertility and on the site they grow nearly to their full height.

The aster doesn't look like Chamomile. It looked very, very much like the small white kind of Symphyotrichum. The wand shaped white group of Symphyotrichum is found all over my town besides roads and between fences. However, this one had serrated leaves and I forget whether or not the stem was hairy.

havalotta · 12-26-2018, 03:53 PM

Can you take a photo of what you're thinking is the white aster Symphyotrichum?

Podo · 12-26-2018, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by havalotta

Can you take a photo of what you're thinking is the white aster Symphyotrichum?

The only photo I have is from the leaf. I'm sure I took pictures of the flower, but they were deleted. This is an old photo from around September I think. It flowered then with small flowers the size of my thumb. Some centers were yellow, others were a pink.

havalotta · 12-27-2018, 12:12 PM

Could it by chance be a member of the Chrysanthemum or daisy family?
Those are scented See: Ox-Eye Daisy (Leucanthemum vulgare)
That leaf resembles yours

Podo · 12-27-2018, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by havalotta

Could it by chance be a member of the Chrysanthemum or daisy family?
Those are scented See: Ox-Eye Daisy (Leucanthemum vulgare)
That leaf resembles yours

I still don't believe it to be anything but a Symphyotrichum. The flowers on Ox-Eye Daisies are too big. I do think I found the species! Panicled Aster, Symphyotrichum lanceolatum, is a very common American-Aster found along road ditches. I don't know why I haven't heard of it until now. The following website says that it tends to flop over from the weight of it's flowers, which from what I saw looked to be true. It even flowers into October. However, unlike the typical Panicled Aster, this one was very short, about a foot tall. It also confirms the site again to be mesic, but the area by the eastern wall may have more moisture like the area by the sidewalk. But also it still had a strong smell which isn't typical of these asters from what I've read. Maybe I bruised it or somebody had stepped on it. I know that its close relative the aromatic aster gives a strong smell when crushed, but this was definitely not an aromatic aster. I believe it's Panicled Aster.
https://www.minnesotawildflowers.inf...panicled-aster

I added a map where the plants I spotted were. The purple is the mint thing, the blue green is sheperd's purse, and the lime green is panicled aster.

Podo · 01-11-2019, 11:53 AM

The plan has changed a lot. I've done some talking with my teacher and we're no longer aiming for the grant. So here's the new plan

300 for 100 Hay Bales to cover half of an acre
370 for 5 pounds of Ernst Seed's Pennsylvania Pollinator Seed Mix, for half an acre
585 for a rear tine roto tiller
235 for additional shrubs brought from Prairie Moon (Indigobush, Pasture Rose, New Jersey Tea, Shrubby St. John's Wort and more) or can be more flexible of a number if a local or closer nursery carries local plants.
So far that's a total of $1,490. Something feels wrong with a low price.
I've also got to plan for garden forks, gloves, and shovels, or possibly borrow them from the landscaping class if they allow that.
Then I've got to add the cost of a slate path because now the teacher would like a slate stepping stone path.

I've come across one problem and it's the tilling. Now we're planting in Spring. So after the soil is no longer frozen then the tilling will happen probably once a week for a month. That's April or May. However, I was reading tilling has to be done for a full growing season and my teacher wants things done this Spring. As much as I'd like to go tilling for a whole season, I don't think it's possible. I have to hope the seed bank is kind to me or the plants suffocate them. I've read about preparations taking a whole growing season and how important it is and this has me worried. Would increasing the native seeds per square foot diminish the amount of non native weeds? (The weeds are the Shepherd's Purse, Canada Thistle, and Bittersweet Nightshade). I also couldn't find a service that blows straw or hay from a blower which is why I think we need the garden forks. I did find a hay farm, though. It's five or ten people on half an acre of land, maybe it won't be terrible? I'm very worried!

Thank you guys for all the help so far.

havalotta · 01-11-2019, 01:16 PM

I'd do a bit of research as to how slate holds up in your area.
See if there are any areas that have had it installed and then go look at it and how it's holding up

Benefits of Slate
Slate is naturally slip-resistant, wide range of color options in shades of gray, blue and light purple, it also comes in darker shades of red and brown. can choose a color that complements their plants or their trim colors. Fairly durable, contractors can easily break the pavers to create a customized look. Slate also does particularly well in areas and regions that receive small amounts of water and snow.

Disadvantages of Slate Pavers
Does well in warmer areas and regions with limited rainfall and snow. Moisture from snow and water can slowly move from the ground into the stone, and as the stone contracts and expands, it develops tiny cracks. Those cracks often exist around the edges and on the surface of the stone, and those smaller hairline cracks can break the stone when someone steps on the surface.
That's what worries me about using slate...How the frost cycles will affect it!

Another common problem occurs because the slate is uneven. Water that reaches the stone can pool on the surface and create puddles, which then freezes during colder weather. The more freeze and thaw cycles that the slate goes through, the more susceptible it is to breakage. Though slate is a good choice for many areas, homeowners should think about the climate and the winter months before using the material.

Slate Paver Cost as of 2019
The cost of slate pavers ranges from $18 per square foot to more than $30 per square foot for ordinary square or rectangular pavers. Irregular slate pavers, also known as broken pavers, have irregular edges and add a more interesting look to a finished patio or walkway. These pieces can cost up to $40 per square foot. Homeowners will find that they can purchase individual pavers for $2 to $10 per piece at most home improvement stores, and that those stores sell pallets of slate for around $400 to $600.

https://www.improvenet.com/r/costs-a...s/slate-pavers

havalotta · 01-11-2019, 01:44 PM

Quote:

I was reading tilling has to be done for a full growing season

Proper prepping of the soil is THE MOST important thing you can do....
After tilling weekly for a month. If there are STILL things sprouting regularly I wouldn't be planting into it and hoping the non natives will be smothered out by what you do. It could create a MONSTER of a High maintenance weed pulling garden you may never..... get caught up on!

Previous to planting is ALSO when you want to add your amendments for nutritional needs and...... moisture retention. NOT later!

Bittersweet Nightshade and the thistles root stem fragments can re-sprout! I would NOT be tilling those under!

Quote:

Thistle tillage segments roots and stimulates new plants to develop. Shoots emerge from root and shoot pieces about 15 days after disturbance by tillage. Small root pieces, 0.25 inch long by 0.125 inch in diameter, have enough stored energy to develop new plants.

Canada Thistle - 3.108 - ExtensionExtension

Shepherd's Purse Not too too bad of a weed to control
If you plant crops that have a high seeding rate to successfully compete with it

Podo · 01-11-2019, 02:31 PM

The freeze-thaw cycle in Pennsylvania is known for how it tears roads apart each year. I'm thinking of using field stone because they were used to build homes here that still last to this day. I'm not sure how slip resistant field stone is, but there's going to be large spaces in between each stepping stone that would be mowed.

Thank you very much for the resources on weeds! I'm thinking about asking to have the class scout the site for these weeds before tilling, but activation of the seed bank has me worried. I won't be adding anything to the soil anymore. The seed mix from Ernst should give something that holds in with the mesic, sunny site. Here's what's in their seed mix, I think it's important to know what they have there:

39.90 % Schizachyrium scoparium, Fort Indiantown Gap-PA Ecotype Little Bluestem
11.00 % Chamaecrista fasciculata, PA Ecotype Partridge Pea
10.00 % Coreopsis lanceolata Lanceleaf Coreopsis
10.00 % Echinacea purpurea Eastern Purple Coneflower
4.50 % Penstemon digitalis, PA Ecotype Foxglove Beardtongue
4.00 % Asclepias tuberosa, PA Ecotype Butterflyweed
4.00 % Liatris spicata, PA Ecotype Marsh Blazingstar
2.60 % Zizia aurea, PA Ecotype Golden Alexanders
2.10 % Pycnanthemum tenuifolium Narrowleaf Mountainmint
1.70 % Heliopsis helianthoides, PA Ecotype Oxeye Sunflower
1.50 % Vernonia noveboracensis, PA Ecotype New York Ironweed
1.00 % Rudbeckia fulgida var. fulgida, Northern VA Ecotype Orange Coneflower
1.00 % Senna hebecarpa, VA & WV Ecotype American Senna
1.00 % Veronicastrum virginicum, PA Ecotype Culver's Root
0.90 % Solidago juncea, PA Ecotype Early Goldenrod
0.50 % Asclepias syriaca Common Milkweed
0.50 % Aster lateriflorus Calico Aster
0.50 % Aster lowrieanus, PA Ecotype Lowrie's Blue Wood Aster
0.50 % Aster oblongifolius, PA Ecotype Aromatic Aster
0.50 % Aster prenanthoides, PA Ecotype Zigzag Aster
0.50 % Silphium trifoliatum Whorled Rosinweed
0.50 % Solidago nemoralis, PA Ecotype Gray Goldenrod
0.40 % Helianthus giganteus, PA Ecotype Giant Sunflower
0.40 % Penstemon laevigatus, PA Ecotype Appalachian Beardtongue
0.30 % Coreopsis tripteris, PA Ecotype Tall Coreopsis
0.20 % Penstemon hirsutus Hairy Beardtongue

I was thinking of adding a few other seeds to the mix, but I don't know how ecologically smart that is, whether they'll smother everything or never grow. I was thinking of Fragaria virginiana - Virginia Strawberry and Lilium philadelphicum - Wood Lily. I was also worried about just having one species of grass! So I did ask them in an e-mail, but they said they didn't have those seeds in stock. The grasses in particular were Sideoats Grama and Poverty Grass (and Pennsylvania sedge, but that's a sedge). It also made me wonder if Nodding Onion could work. I'm getting ahead of myself.

12-26-2018, 03:53 PM	#22
havalotta WG Prize & Gift Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Michigan	Can you take a photo of what you're thinking is the white aster Symphyotrichum? __________________ The successful woman is the woman that had the chance and took it! A walk among the elusive Whitetail Deer

12-27-2018, 12:12 PM	#24
havalotta WG Prize & Gift Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Michigan	Could it by chance be a member of the Chrysanthemum or daisy family? Those are scented See: Ox-Eye Daisy (Leucanthemum vulgare) That leaf resembles yours __________________ The successful woman is the woman that had the chance and took it! A walk among the elusive Whitetail Deer

01-11-2019, 01:16 PM	#27
havalotta WG Prize & Gift Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Michigan	I'd do a bit of research as to how slate holds up in your area. See if there are any areas that have had it installed and then go look at it and how it's holding up Benefits of Slate Slate is naturally slip-resistant, wide range of color options in shades of gray, blue and light purple, it also comes in darker shades of red and brown. can choose a color that complements their plants or their trim colors. Fairly durable, contractors can easily break the pavers to create a customized look. Slate also does particularly well in areas and regions that receive small amounts of water and snow. Disadvantages of Slate Pavers Does well in warmer areas and regions with limited rainfall and snow. Moisture from snow and water can slowly move from the ground into the stone, and as the stone contracts and expands, it develops tiny cracks. Those cracks often exist around the edges and on the surface of the stone, and those smaller hairline cracks can break the stone when someone steps on the surface. That's what worries me about using slate...How the frost cycles will affect it! Another common problem occurs because the slate is uneven. Water that reaches the stone can pool on the surface and create puddles, which then freezes during colder weather. The more freeze and thaw cycles that the slate goes through, the more susceptible it is to breakage. Though slate is a good choice for many areas, homeowners should think about the climate and the winter months before using the material. Slate Paver Cost as of 2019 The cost of slate pavers ranges from $18 per square foot to more than $30 per square foot for ordinary square or rectangular pavers. Irregular slate pavers, also known as broken pavers, have irregular edges and add a more interesting look to a finished patio or walkway. These pieces can cost up to $40 per square foot. Homeowners will find that they can purchase individual pavers for $2 to $10 per piece at most home improvement stores, and that those stores sell pallets of slate for around $400 to $600. https://www.improvenet.com/r/costs-a...s/slate-pavers __________________ The successful woman is the woman that had the chance and took it! A walk among the elusive Whitetail Deer

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01-11-2019, 11:53 AM	#26
Podo Carbon Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania	The plan has changed a lot. I've done some talking with my teacher and we're no longer aiming for the grant. So here's the new plan 300 for 100 Hay Bales to cover half of an acre 370 for 5 pounds of Ernst Seed's Pennsylvania Pollinator Seed Mix, for half an acre 585 for a rear tine roto tiller 235 for additional shrubs brought from Prairie Moon (Indigobush, Pasture Rose, New Jersey Tea, Shrubby St. John's Wort and more) or can be more flexible of a number if a local or closer nursery carries local plants. So far that's a total of $1,490. Something feels wrong with a low price. I've also got to plan for garden forks, gloves, and shovels, or possibly borrow them from the landscaping class if they allow that. Then I've got to add the cost of a slate path because now the teacher would like a slate stepping stone path. I've come across one problem and it's the tilling. Now we're planting in Spring. So after the soil is no longer frozen then the tilling will happen probably once a week for a month. That's April or May. However, I was reading tilling has to be done for a full growing season and my teacher wants things done this Spring. As much as I'd like to go tilling for a whole season, I don't think it's possible. I have to hope the seed bank is kind to me or the plants suffocate them. I've read about preparations taking a whole growing season and how important it is and this has me worried. Would increasing the native seeds per square foot diminish the amount of non native weeds? (The weeds are the Shepherd's Purse, Canada Thistle, and Bittersweet Nightshade). I also couldn't find a service that blows straw or hay from a blower which is why I think we need the garden forks. I did find a hay farm, though. It's five or ten people on half an acre of land, maybe it won't be terrible? I'm very worried! Thank you guys for all the help so far.

01-11-2019, 02:31 PM	#29
Podo Carbon Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania	The freeze-thaw cycle in Pennsylvania is known for how it tears roads apart each year. I'm thinking of using field stone because they were used to build homes here that still last to this day. I'm not sure how slip resistant field stone is, but there's going to be large spaces in between each stepping stone that would be mowed. Thank you very much for the resources on weeds! I'm thinking about asking to have the class scout the site for these weeds before tilling, but activation of the seed bank has me worried. I won't be adding anything to the soil anymore. The seed mix from Ernst should give something that holds in with the mesic, sunny site. Here's what's in their seed mix, I think it's important to know what they have there: 39.90 % Schizachyrium scoparium, Fort Indiantown Gap-PA Ecotype Little Bluestem 11.00 % Chamaecrista fasciculata, PA Ecotype Partridge Pea 10.00 % Coreopsis lanceolata Lanceleaf Coreopsis 10.00 % Echinacea purpurea Eastern Purple Coneflower 4.50 % Penstemon digitalis, PA Ecotype Foxglove Beardtongue 4.00 % Asclepias tuberosa, PA Ecotype Butterflyweed 4.00 % Liatris spicata, PA Ecotype Marsh Blazingstar 2.60 % Zizia aurea, PA Ecotype Golden Alexanders 2.10 % Pycnanthemum tenuifolium Narrowleaf Mountainmint 1.70 % Heliopsis helianthoides, PA Ecotype Oxeye Sunflower 1.50 % Vernonia noveboracensis, PA Ecotype New York Ironweed 1.00 % Rudbeckia fulgida var. fulgida, Northern VA Ecotype Orange Coneflower 1.00 % Senna hebecarpa, VA & WV Ecotype American Senna 1.00 % Veronicastrum virginicum, PA Ecotype Culver's Root 0.90 % Solidago juncea, PA Ecotype Early Goldenrod 0.50 % Asclepias syriaca Common Milkweed 0.50 % Aster lateriflorus Calico Aster 0.50 % Aster lowrieanus, PA Ecotype Lowrie's Blue Wood Aster 0.50 % Aster oblongifolius, PA Ecotype Aromatic Aster 0.50 % Aster prenanthoides, PA Ecotype Zigzag Aster 0.50 % Silphium trifoliatum Whorled Rosinweed 0.50 % Solidago nemoralis, PA Ecotype Gray Goldenrod 0.40 % Helianthus giganteus, PA Ecotype Giant Sunflower 0.40 % Penstemon laevigatus, PA Ecotype Appalachian Beardtongue 0.30 % Coreopsis tripteris, PA Ecotype Tall Coreopsis 0.20 % Penstemon hirsutus Hairy Beardtongue I was thinking of adding a few other seeds to the mix, but I don't know how ecologically smart that is, whether they'll smother everything or never grow. I was thinking of Fragaria virginiana - Virginia Strawberry and Lilium philadelphicum - Wood Lily. I was also worried about just having one species of grass! So I did ask them in an e-mail, but they said they didn't have those seeds in stock. The grasses in particular were Sideoats Grama and Poverty Grass (and Pennsylvania sedge, but that's a sedge). It also made me wonder if Nodding Onion could work. I'm getting ahead of myself.