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Old 03-19-2017, 01:50 PM   #11
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<sigh> I just noticed that they are upside down--I'm on my way out. Hopefully I will fix that later.
Looks like I missed my chance to edit the post. Well, at least now I don't have to search for the photos again, open them in another program, and save them so they show up right-side-up.

They are all right side up in the folder--but, I think I recall that someone mentioned that there is a code that keeps them right side up...and that WG does not have this newer feature (sorry, for the layman's explanation...I hope that was fairly accurate).

Maybe I'll add more photos later if I find them soon.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:54 PM   #12
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Thank you for the link, NEWisc.
I am thinking that I am gonna like the "Serpentine gravel forb community"...I also have visions of creating a gravelly area with thin grasses and such--hoping to create habitat for killdeer--for some reason, I would really like to have them here.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:02 PM   #13
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Not my county, but worth a read--I'm posting this here so that I can find it easily any time that I'm thinking of plant communities: http://www.tiogacountypa.us/Departme...y_NAI_2006.pdf

....and then there is this one:

http://www.naturalheritage.state.pa....01995_2001.pdf
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:11 PM   #14
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It's always fun to explore native plant communities. It's interesting to see what nature has decided about which plants go well together. You might be able to get some ideas for selecting the plants for your community from...
Terrestrial Communities of Pennsylvania

Other terrestrial communities that include Phlox subulata:
Red-cedar - pine serpentine shrubland
Serpentine grassland
Serpentine gravel forb community.
Easy access to the list here:

Quote:
Serpentine pitch pine - oak forest
This community type is part of the "Serpentine barrens complex." It occurs in
areas underlain by serpentine bedrock where soil development has proceeded
far enough to support forest vegetation, but not so far as to override the
influence of serpentine chemistry on species composition. Fire is an important
factor in the establishment and persistence of pitch pine. In the absence of fire,
pine is likely to decrease in favor of hardwood species. Characteristic overstory
species include Quercus stellata (post oak), Q. marilandica (blackjack oak),
Pinus rigida (pitch pine), Sassafras albidum (sassafras), Juniperus virginiana
(red-cedar), Nyssa sylvatica (black-gum), Populus grandidentata (large-toothed
aspen), and Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust)—which is generally
invasive in these systems. The shrub layer is often dominated by an
impenetrable tangle of Smilax rotundifolia (greenbrier) and S. glauca (catbrier).
Q. prinoides (chinquapin oak) occurs in the understory and in openings;
Quercus ilicifolia (scrub oak) is also present in openings. Low shrub species
include Vaccinium pallidum (lowbush blueberry), V. stamineum (deerberry), and
Gaylussacia baccata (black huckleberry). Herbaceous species include Pteridium
aquilinum (bracken fern), Aralia nudicaulis (wild sarsaparilla), and a variety of
graminoids.
Related types: The "Serpentine Virginia pine - oak forest" type also occurs on
serpentinite-derived soils and shares many species with this type. The Virginia
pine type is dominated by a mixture of Pinus virginiana and various oaks. P.
virginiana produces denser shade and thicker litter than does P. rigida.
Herbaceous and shrub growth under P. virginiana is generally sparse. The fire
ecology of the two species is also vastly different. For a more detailed
explanation of the ecology of serpentine barrens, see the description of the
"Serpentine barrens complex."
Range: Piedmont.
Selected references: Latham 1992, Roger Latham-personal communication,
PNDI field surveys.
[Crosswalk: Smith's "Eastern Serpentine Barren" (in part), TNC's Quercus falcata - Quercus
alba Forest Alliance, SAF's Pitch pine
And here:
Quote:
Serpentine grassland
This community type is part of the "Serpentine barren complex." It is restricted
to areas underlain by serpentinite bedrock. The dense, prairie-like graminoid
cover is usually dominated by warm-season (C4) grasses. Warm-season grasses
characteristic of this community include Schizachyrium scoparium (little
bluestem), Muhlenbergia mexicana (muhly), Eragrostis spectabilis (purple lovegrass),
Setaria geniculata (perennial foxtail), Andropogon gerardii (big bluestem),
Sporobolus heterolepisS (prairie dropseed), Sorghastrum nutans (Indian grass),
and Bouteloua curtipendulaS (side-oats gramma). Other species commonly found
include Senecio anonymusS (plain ragwort), Aristida purpurascensS (arrowfeather),
A. dichotoma (churchmouse three-awn), Aster depauperatusS
(serpentine aster), Panicum acuminatum (a panic-grass), P. annulum (annulus
panic-grass), P. dichotomum (a panic-grass), P. oligosanthes (a panic-grass), P.
sphaerocarpon (a panic-grass), Potentilla canadensis (old-field cinquefoil), Rosa
carolina (prairie rose), Setaria geniculata (perennial foxtail), Cerastium arvense
var. villosissimumS (barrens chickweed), Phlox subulata ssp. subulata (creeping
phlox), Achillea millefoliumI (yarrow), Eupatorium aromaticum (small white
snakeroot), Scleria pauciflora (few-flowered nutrush), Oenothera fruticosa
(sundrops), Solidago nemoralis (gray goldenrod), Antennaria plantaginifolia
(plantain pussytoes), Asclepias verticillata (whorled milkweed), and A. viridiflora
(green milkweed).
Related types: This community may be said to end either where graminoid
dominance and continuous soil substrate ends (here the "Serpentine gravel forb
community" generally begins), or where shrub cover reaches about 25% (here
the "Red-cedar - pine serpentine shrubland" generally begins).
Range: Piedmont.
Selected references: Latham 1992, PNDI field surveys.
[Crosswalk: Smith's "Eastern Serpentine Barren," TNC's Pinus (virginiana,
rigida) / Schizachyrium scoparium Herbaceous Alliance, Pinus virginiana - Pinus
rigida / Schizachyrium scoparium - Scleria pauciflora Community.]
This may be my best bet...seeing that I have already established dewberry and a start of the lowbush blueberry there...and it doesn't specify serpentine:

Quote:
Low heath shrubland
This community type occurs on either sandy soil or on thin soil over bedrock.
Soils are acidic, moisture availability is low. This type most commonly occurs
on ridgetops or in other situations where exposure to the elements; the frostpocket
phenomenon, or droughty conditions limits the establishment of trees
and taller shrubs. These sites are often subject to periodic fire. The dominant
species are Vaccinium angustifolium (low sweet blueberry), V. pallidum (lowbush
blueberry), Kalmia angustifolia (sheep laurel), Aronia melanocarpa (black
chokeberry), and/or Gaylussacia baccata (huckleberry). Scattered small trees
may occur in some places, for example where soil has accumulated in cracks in
the bedrock. Typical species include Pinus rigida (pitch pine), P. strobus (eastern
white pine), Populus tremuloides (quaking aspen), and Betula populifolia (gray
birch). The herbaceous and creeping shrub layer includes such species as
Danthonia compressa (northern oatgrass), D. spicata (poverty grass), Lysimachia
quadrifolia (whorled loosestrife), Melampyrum lineare (cow-wheat), Deschampsia
flexuosa (hairgrass), Rubus hispidus (swamp dewberry), Mitchella repens
(partridge-berry), Pteridium aquilinum (bracken), Schizachyrium scoparium (little
bluestem), Carex pensylvanica (Pennsylvania sedge), C. communis (a sedge), and
Gaultheria procumbens (teaberry). Moss and lichen cover on rocks may be
considerable; more information is needed on non-vascular species. This
community may occur as part of the "Ridgetop acidic barren complex."
Related types: The "Scrub oak shrubland" and "Pitch pine - scrub oak
woodland" types frequently occur adjacent to this type, usually downslope, on
slightly deeper soils, or in less exposed areas.
Range: Glaciated NE, Glaciated NW, Pittsburgh Plateau, Pocono Plateau, Ridge
and Valley, Unglaciated Allegheny Plateau, and perhaps South Mountain.
Selected references: Clark 1946, Hough 1945, Schege and Butch 1980.
[Crosswalk: Smith's "Northern Appalachian Low Elevation Acidic Rocky
Summit." and "Ridgetop Dwarf-Tree Forest" (in part), TNC's Vaccinium
(myrtilloides, pallidum, angustifolium) Dwarf-Shrubland Alliance, Vaccinium
(myrtilloides, pallidum, angustifolium) high Alleghenies (HAL) Community.]
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:35 PM   #15
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I am thinking that I am gonna like the "Serpentine gravel forb community"...I also have visions of creating a gravelly area with thin grasses and such--hoping to create habitat for killdeer--for some reason, I would really like to have them here.
When you create your gravelly area don't forget about choosing the right kind of gravel, granite for acidic or limestone for alkaline.

Killdeer chicks are really neat little birds.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:45 PM   #16
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When you create your gravelly area don't forget about choosing the right kind of gravel, granite for acidic or limestone for alkaline.

Killdeer chicks are really neat little birds.
Hmm....good point. I had planned to/considered using locally sourced gravel that is from less than a mile away--removed from what used to be a farm field and was likely deposited by glaciers (the area is a floodplain, I believe)...and the gravel is rounded much like what I find while digging in my own yard.

Would this be appropriate for an area of sparse grasses and shorter wildflowers?

I'd love to see the adults--the chicks would be an amazing bonus! I've seen photos of them, and they are adorable.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:55 PM   #17
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NeWisc You still have your rock-alpine gardens?
We don't have one here at the house, but there is a rock garden at the Harmony demonstration gardens. It's not really alpine though. It's a collection of some native plants and some non-native plants. We incorporate native plants wherever we can, but sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:05 PM   #18
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Hmm....good point. I had planned to/considered using locally sourced gravel that is from less than a mile away--removed from what used to be a farm field and was likely deposited by glaciers (the area is a floodplain, I believe)...and the gravel is rounded much like what I find while digging in my own yard.

Would this be appropriate for an area of sparse grasses and shorter wildflowers?

I'd love to see the adults--the chicks would be an amazing bonus! I've seen photos of them, and they are adorable.
I'm sure the locally sourced gravel would be appropriate for your yard, but I was thinking more about matching the needs of the plants that you select for your gravelly area to your selection of gravel type.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:28 PM   #19
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We don't have one here at the house, but there is a rock garden at the Harmony demonstration gardens. It's not really alpine though. It's a collection of some native plants and some non-native plants. We incorporate native plants wherever we can, but sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
Thought you used to have one upon a slight hill at your place but then again It's been many many many years since I've been there. Maybe you've moved since?About all I can remember of the area was it seemed a bit higher with maybe sedums and low growing creepy crawling alpine species that could take the drier climate it seemed to have, and flatish rocks here and there. Perhaps you called it something other in its days or perhaps it was just a natural area nothing you planted that I had noticed. Thought maybe you might have had a few pointers for Dapjwy if I had brought it to mind.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:50 PM   #20
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I'm sure the locally sourced gravel would be appropriate for your yard, but I was thinking more about matching the needs of the plants that you select for your gravelly area to your selection of gravel type.
I guess that I am sort of torn between growing what is most appropriate for our yard...and still incorporating a wider variety of habitats and plants. I struggle with the idea of having to modify what is already growing here to create ideal growing conditions for specialized plants. That seems a bit too much like what the gardening industry does--not the right plant for the right site; force the site to fit the plant by using artificial means.

At the same time, I really do like the idea of creating as diverse a collection of natives and habitats on our (relatively small) two acres (--for such a big plan). Even bringing in that small amount of shale altered the property--and probably didn't alter it enough to support the plants that I am trying for.

Still, digging a pond and installing a liner is creating an artificial habitat--but one that I really desire...and one that would definitely benefit wildlife (nearby water source)...and allow me to grow a wider range of natives.

So, I guess I need to come to terms with what I really want to do with the property.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Also, if I were to go with a wider range of habitats--ideally, I'd love an alkaline barren AND an acidic one! (I think I need more information about the two and which plants each supports.)
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