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Old 05-03-2013, 04:46 PM   #21
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kchd> I can’t get to anything at your link but…. I’d already found some “thingies” referred to as “comparative” studies which….. weren’t exactly comparative but… then he did cover his bases now didn’t he when he acknowledged that it’d be extremely difficult validating holistic resource management experimentally. Sooooooooo….
Lib, sorry about the link. Here ya go! (and more response later )
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File Type: pdf Holechek et al 1999.pdf (226.5 KB, 1 views)
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:45 AM   #22
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W_B> Ummmm…. no. But…. evidently you and kchd and a few others don’t either. I caught you calling a spade a spade when you pointed out how Savory’s “lofty” goal was aligned with the UN’s Agenda 21 and kchd added a link to something I’ve now read that’s beyond an eyebrow raiser. Anyway….. I’m too old for sugar coating “stuff” like this…. it takes too much neural cell activity which I’m sorely lacking these days and beyond that….. April 15th came and went and we got hosed paying for all the “experimentation” that’s been going on at State and Federal levels…. not to mention the local level…. our property taxes went up another $800 thanks to more proposed ICLEI “Smart Growth” improvements slated for our community that they’ll be unveiling soon that we probably need like we need a hole in the head. Aside from that…. I’ve got a vested interest in what’s going on…. sons…. nephews and…. a niece. Where are they gonna come up with all the $$$ to update their water and waste treatment plants while righting all the ecological wrongs what with Robin Hood and his band of merry men out there regulating and taxing them into servitude with nothing to show for it but “mandated neglect”? Man oh man I loved that phrase “mandated neglect”.
--
A few years ago I wrote this, http://www.wildlifegardeners.org/for...warming-2.html. It’s how I feel about what the people behind the curtain are doing to human beings and our lands what with all their UN “blueprints” for “sustainability” and “patented” technological silver bullets.
--
kchd> that was a GREAT find…. not exactly a comparison of herds of cows up against herds of buffalo but…. still a good comparison of grazing management “techniques”. I admit…. I loved this, “In our search of the literature we could find no studies that substantiate Savory's claims on the benefits of hoof action on range soils.” Hmmm…. did they check the ‘Savory Institute’>>>? Additionally, the authors pretty much spelled out that there were “unmentioned” problems with the Charter Grazing trials as in…. the cost of supplemental feeds required of Savory’s grazing systems during seasonal dry periods that…. even with costly supplemental feeds that are dependent on water, synthetic fertilizers, and pesticides…. the cows still suffered so much weight loss that the ranchers lost out when they went to market. Back to actual comparative studies…..I guess now after reading that and watching Savory’s pep rally again where he said there’s “only one option left to climatologists and scientists, and that is to do the unthinkable: Use livestock bunched and moving as a proxy for former moving herds and predators”….. I’d REALLY like people to see some comparative “hoof action” studies from the southwest…..as in the herds of introduced cows up against herds of our desert tortoises otherwise we…. as in Americans…. should show this man the door. Our American Southwest ain’t exactly Zimbabwe.
--
Something else to consider regarding any “hoof action” in the Southwest, 'The Most Astonishing Boring Plant in the Mojave', The Most Astonishing Boring Plant in the Mojave | Commentary | The Back Forty | KCET, "You know what they say about a little knowledge. Since learning this little bit about blackbrush a couple of years ago, I can't see that solid, drab, literally monotonous gray shroud on the desert landscape without a sharp intake of breath, a tingling awe running up the back of my neck, a wonder of nature only made more wonderful by how well it's hidden.
And if we lose it, we might just lose much of the rest of the desert as well.
--
I want to add this specifically for you and Liquid, 'Taking a hike', Taking a hike – Nature Bats Last, "Hovering in full view from my window is one minor example of the world’s wounds. It’s the story of how the (North American) West was lost. It begins when silver and gold are discovered in the area, at which point the mining company buys all the nearby water rights and the associated land (considerable water is needed to extract ore from rock). As with all states in the western U.S., the state constitution declares that water must be used in an agriculturally productive capacity. So the mining company, interested only in getting the water to the mine, leases the land to a cattle company. Thus is the local river emptied into two irrigation ditches to grow feed for livestock. The water not consumed by pasture (and then cows) is captured a few miles downstream in an ugly reservoir designed specifically for the purpose. The water is then pumped a couple thousand feet uphill and a few tens of miles horizontally, across a major mountain range to the site of the ore. In summary, the single most destructive force in the history of the West (livestock) is subsidized by a disinterested citizenry and the entirety of nature in the name of financial profit for the second-most destructive force in the history of the West (mining). This arrangement is but a minor example of the system known as civilization, but it reveals the “gold mine” of two industries, cattle and mining: the owners get the gold and the rest of us get the shaft. With these industries, as with civilization, the goal is to transfer financial wealth from the poor to the wealthy. Destroying every aspect of the living planet is merely collateral damage, as there’s a lot of money in planetary destruction. By the way, the specific strategy in this local area is working as brilliantly as the general approach of civilization. We’ve never visited so much horror on the living planet, and we’ve never cared less about it.”
--
I spilled some of my guts…. now…. it’s your turn, “Here ya go! (and more response later)”
--
Liquid> "Equil: You also must be one heck of a writer, if you can do all of this in a little bit like you did.." Ummmm.... I think you missed where it took me a whole hour to type that.... just like it did this post!!!
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:35 PM   #23
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I admit…. I loved this, “In our search of the literature we could find no studies that substantiate Savory's claims on the benefits of hoof action on range soils.” Hmmm…. did they check the ‘Savory Institute’>>>? Additionally, the authors pretty much spelled out that there were “unmentioned” problems with the Charter Grazing trials as in…. the cost of supplemental feeds required of Savory’s grazing systems during seasonal dry periods that…. even with costly supplemental feeds that are dependent on water, synthetic fertilizers, and pesticides…. the cows still suffered so much weight loss that the ranchers lost out when they went to market. Back to actual comparative studies…..I guess now after reading that and watching Savory’s pep rally again where he said there’s “only one option left to climatologists and scientists, and that is to do the unthinkable: Use livestock bunched and moving as a proxy for former moving herds and predators”….. I’d REALLY like people to see some comparative “hoof action” studies from the southwest…..as in the herds of introduced cows up against herds of our desert tortoises otherwise we…. as in Americans…. should show this man the door. Our American Southwest ain’t exactly Zimbabwe.
Lib, you zeroed in on exactly the same thing I did. Among the many other flaws/issues that can’t be reconciled, the “hoof action” was the one I had the most trouble with (aka, calling BS on that in my mind). For a comparison, I think you can look at the feral horses of the southwest and examine what they’re doing to the soils with regard to compaction, too. There are a myriad of studies looking at soil compaction due to livestock. It is especially common at sites with more soil moisture, such riparian areas and waterholes. I think the real challenge is to find published studies in the literature that support Savory’s “hoof action” claim.

My husband grew up around Tucson, AZ, and we have family there. Hence the yearly trip to the Sonoran Desert. Having grown up in the southeast, and only visited the desert on occasion growing up, I am completely fascinated by that captivating ecosystem! It never gets old visiting there, spending hours, days, weeks poking around in the desert. I have a soft spot for that desert.

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[…] In summary, the single most destructive force in the history of the West (livestock) is subsidized by a disinterested citizenry and the entirety of nature in the name of financial profit for the second-most destructive force in the history of the West (mining).

My husband and I have our own acronym for BLM based on their treatment of public land held by that agency: Bureau of Livestock and Mining!

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I spilled some of my guts…. now…. it’s your turn, “Here ya go! (and more response later)”
And there you have it (see above). I’ve witnessed some pretty dramatic differences in landscape changes in the desert, when looking at one side of a fence where livestock are permitted to graze, and on the other, where livestock are excluded. Next time I will be sure to take a photo!
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:50 PM   #24
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Quoting Kcdh;,
" I’ve witnessed some pretty dramatic differences in landscape changes in the desert, when looking at one side of a fence where livestock are permitted to graze, and on the other, where livestock are excluded. Next time I will be sure to take a photo"

I have only been to Arizona one time in my life. I did visit a rancher while I was out there during the winter. I now understand what they mean by big country.

Here; where I live it is one cow for ever three acres. We asked the rancher how many acres per cow it took for him out in Arizona. Okay it has been 26 years ago, and I don't remember what he said, but it was a lot of acres that he said. My husband and I made some sort of lame joke about how could a cow gain any weight since it was having to use all the energy it gained from one tuft of grass to travel so far to eat another.

I am also not use to seeing lights from a town miles and miles away - and taking hours to get to it. It is almost like I was out to sea.
So, I am limited, but curious.

The other side of the fence where the live stock was -- at the time? What about after the livestock had been gone for awhile, what is the comparison of both sides of the fence?

You must include that in your pictures. I think Savory can be proved wrong or right - and it is silly that we don't know, or have this all done up in a bow. It feels like reinventing the wheel. After all the rancher in Arizona knew how many cows he could handle the same as those here. Why don't we know what happens to totally grazed and totally ungrazed, and what if any difference grazers makes on the land. And is some grazers harder or easier on the land than others.

Oh and we visited several copper mines -- Wow! I felt like an ant.-- Oh and we visited an old silver mine - and an old abandon town and with a cemetery called Boot Hill. Now there is some serious disturbance of the land.

We also visited a park - that was at one time a favorite place for the Apaches - it was wonderful place and I can see why they liked it so.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:56 PM   #25
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Default All Sizzle and No Steak

All Sizzle and No Steak
By James McWilliams
Posted Monday, April 22, 2013, at 5:55 AM

Allan Savory’s TED talk is wrong, and the benefits of holistic grazing have been debunked. - Slate Magazine
excerpt from above:
Quote:
…A 2000 evaluation of Savory’s methods in North America (mostly on prairie rangelands in Wyoming, Oklahoma, Texas, and New Mexico) contradicted Savory’s conclusions as well. Whereas Savory asserts that the concentrated pounding of cow hooves will increase the soil’s ability to absorb water, North American studies, according to the authors, “have been quite consistent in showing that hoof action from having a large number of animals on a small area for short time periods reduced rather than increased filtration.” Likewise, whereas Savory insists that his methods will revive grasses, “the most complete study in North America” on the impact of holistic management on prairie grass found “a definite decline” of plant growth on mixed prairie and rough fescue areas. It’s no wonder that one ecologist—who was otherwise sympathetic toward Savory—flatly stated after the TED talk, “Savory’s method won’t scale.”
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:02 AM   #26
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I have a small farm with two horses. I have been reading a lot about how to control weeds without chemicals. All sources indicate that overgrazing and soil compaction encourage weed growth that decreases the ability for the grass to grow.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:09 AM   #27
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Here's some more reading on grazing of public lands if.... anyone's interested, http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/resources.htm. Some of the studies kcdh referenced are probably included there.
--
kchd> No matter how people like Savory try to re-package their "theories" so they can be sold to the public..... our fragile ecosystems won't stand a chance against the so-called "sustainable" development of our wilds being mandated by Agenda 21.
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"My husband and I have our own acronym for BLM based on their treatment of public land held by that agency: Bureau of Livestock and Mining!" Uh huh.... I totally agree. I'm beyond outraged by all the land we've leased to China all so they can extract coal and ship it back overseas to fuel their coal plants. Say.... what's the EPA acronym stand for to you and your husband? Go ahead.... spit it out.... don't be shy!!!
--
Ellenwright> keep on reducing your dependencies on pesticides and do what ever you can for your land by removing ickies and nasties and planting back local natives because.... your land.... like most land.... mine included.... has already succumbed to irreversible land use changes and what we do to "heal" it does matter in the bigger scheme of things!!! You go girl!!!
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:47 AM   #28
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Ellenwright:
To prove him wrong you need to put more and more horses on your little farm, and make it into a dry lot- which seems to be what has to happen anymore to keep the horses from getting foundered. (Three more from my neighborhood area had to be put down just this week!). Then after it is a dry lot take them them off the area, and see how long that land recovers. That is what he is saying -- I think?

But seriously - and more on track; and I was kidding Ellen.

Savory did not go into any details in his speech.

And everyone of us agrees that herd activity is important on land: Right?

Over grazing is a rather confusing word. Is he talking about thinning out the grass, or eating it down to the top of the ground - surely no more than that - for anymore and you get dry lots with nothing to come back for a long while, plus he said they did not bring any extra food in for the animals so that means they moved them out quickly after they had eaten the land down to a certain point.
Savory never said how long it took after they left the land for the land to come back or improve, nor the length of time before the herds were put back on the land. I guess again it varies with the type of vegetation and rain fall and the niche.

it is a shame they killed all those elephants and displaced all those native herdsmen - when they could have managed the land better. IT sounds to me that in South Africa (like America) they have built barriers of agriculture, villages, towns, cities, and roads which has disrupted the natural migration of animals? So they might have to do artificial migration - and move (GOOD GOSH) Elephants around to the areas where needed???

How do you move wild African Elephants? I would like to see that.

Native species here in the US also had natural migration routes and those have also been disrupted. I suppose land owned by a rancher that knows exactly how many acres it take to sustain his herds year after year. Herds give birth and they build up - then the young are sold off and the herd is reduced. Hmmm, in a way though it is sort of like migration.

How do you move a large herd of buffalo? Or Elk? Or those gazelles, impala for that matter - how do you catch them up?

Maybe you make natural alleys of grasslands that skirt around cities and towns and tunnels or brides over highways all for the herds to follow from one area to another.

The trouble with alley ways they get trampled and the herds won't follow them for in migration they are following food really. Maybe they could put feed lots along the way to encourage the animals to move along.
I am sure this idea has been thought on before --as wise man Daniel in the Bible said, nothing is truly new under the sun".

In the back of my mind and a great fear in a lot of readers here is that big corps, leasing out public land to put cattle on -- and really that would not be such a horrible thing for some of the public land to be used this way -- except we everyone know just how greedy and powerful and scary a big corporation can get, so thus our fears are justified and right on .
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:14 PM   #29
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Ummmm.... Savory was a part of the elephant kill off. They had to get them off that land so the "experiment' could proceed. He apologized. That makes what he did hunkie dorie I guess. Our southwestern deserts DON'T have any herd animals.... there's been no "hoof action" there since the last ice age. What he's doing is helping the ranchers get in under the guise that he's gonna be mitigating carbon dioxide.... after he helps get the ranchers in and "funding" for his "hoof and action" research.... he will have just successfully opened up more of our desert doors to even more industrialization than they're already withstanding.... we're talking they'll compact tens of thousands of acres with their bulldozers entombing any critter in a burrow and obliterating any plant in their way. What lives will be sprayed with herbicide all so multinationals can make even more $$$ off the carbon exchanges with "green" projects like.... industrial farms of bat and bird shredding cuisinarts and.... bat and bird cooking Char-Broils.... all of which will be dependent on government mandates and loan guarantees requiring the issuance of permits for “takes”. These are OUR wilds.... they're supposed to be wildlife sanctuaries for future generations of Americans not $$$ making opportunities for the elite.
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Have you ever heard of Jan Hendrik Schön? IMO.... Savory is just the type who could end up in that league if he could just get his hands on more of our tax $$$.... Jan Hendrik Schön: World Class Physics Fraud Gets Last Laugh - A Whole Book About Himself, one of the people who posted a comment summed it up well, "Schon told the world what it wanted to hear. So he was believed. He was much like one of the tailors in "The Emperors New Clothes". "Anyone who wasn't able to see these clothes must be incompetent or a fool", as the story went. This tailor has told us that we can make transistors small without limit (more or less). Moore's law will stand!
It's really a modern spin on a really old story. The moral. Don't belive people just because they have authority."
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:41 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidambar View Post
Ellenwright:
To prove him wrong you need to put more and more horses on your little farm, and make it into a dry lot- which seems to be what has to happen anymore to keep the horses from getting foundered. (Three more from my neighborhood area had to be put down just this week!). Then after it is a dry lot take them them off the area, and see how long that land recovers. That is what he is saying -- I think?

But seriously - and more on track; and I was kidding Ellen.

Savory did not go into any details in his speech.

And everyone of us agrees that herd activity is important on land: Right?

Over grazing is a rather confusing word. Is he talking about thinning out the grass, or eating it down to the top of the ground - surely no more than that - for anymore and you get dry lots with nothing to come back for a long while, plus he said they did not bring any extra food in for the animals so that means they moved them out quickly after they had eaten the land down to a certain point.
Savory never said how long it took after they left the land for the land to come back or improve, nor the length of time before the herds were put back on the land. I guess again it varies with the type of vegetation and rain fall and the niche.

it is a shame they killed all those elephants and displaced all those native herdsmen - when they could have managed the land better. IT sounds to me that in South Africa (like America) they have built barriers of agriculture, villages, towns, cities, and roads which has disrupted the natural migration of animals? So they might have to do artificial migration - and move (GOOD GOSH) Elephants around to the areas where needed???

How do you move wild African Elephants? I would like to see that.

Native species here in the US also had natural migration routes and those have also been disrupted. I suppose land owned by a rancher that knows exactly how many acres it take to sustain his herds year after year. Herds give birth and they build up - then the young are sold off and the herd is reduced. Hmmm, in a way though it is sort of like migration.

How do you move a large herd of buffalo? Or Elk? Or those gazelles, impala for that matter - how do you catch them up?

Maybe you make natural alleys of grasslands that skirt around cities and towns and tunnels or brides over highways all for the herds to follow from one area to another.

The trouble with alley ways they get trampled and the herds won't follow them for in migration they are following food really. Maybe they could put feed lots along the way to encourage the animals to move along.
I am sure this idea has been thought on before --as wise man Daniel in the Bible said, nothing is truly new under the sun".

In the back of my mind and a great fear in a lot of readers here is that big corps, leasing out public land to put cattle on -- and really that would not be such a horrible thing for some of the public land to be used this way -- except we everyone know just how greedy and powerful and scary a big corporation can get, so thus our fears are justified and right on .
One winter I let them out in the pastures. I normally leave them on a lot all winter. After leaving them on the pastures during the winter they had an increased number of weeds in the spring. The lot never recovers. It is mostly weeds. I think if I left them off the lot for a long time it would still be very weedy. Overgrazing has made the weeds abundant with very little grass.
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