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Old 04-28-2013, 10:30 AM   #11
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"It went against everything I had previously learned about land management/conservation and grazing." I'm with kchd.... it goes against everything I've learned about conservation too but even more so.... it goes against what I've experienced and see with my own 2 eyes and then.... I'm not finding any comparative studies. Where are actual comparative studies>>>?
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Cattle and bison both have cloved hooves.... therein lies the end of the similarities between buffalo and domesticated cows in my mind. I want to “believe” Savory…. I think a lot of folk do…. I just can’t. I went looking for a few articles to add to this thread because I found his repeated use of the phrase "mimics nature" disturbing and well..... I was having a really hard time trying to swallow what he was proposing.... that indigenous ruminants be replaced with more cattle to stave off catastrophic effects of global warming when.... I stumbled on this, Peak patriarchy? – Nature Bats Last. Whoa…. so many of the exact same thoughts that were racing through my mind when I watched the YouTube all neatly packaged into 1 review. Evidently there are more folk than what I thought struggling with what Savory’s trying to sell as “sustainable” for the long haul. Me personally.... I find myself agreeing with these 3 statements, "Grazing is an important part of the ecology of North America’s grasslands. Vital. But emulating the grazing regimes under which our grasslands evolved and making money off cattle has, for the most part, not yet been accomplished. And what Mr. Savory preaches would take ranchers farther from rather than closer to that goal. Remember that our grasslands, like Africa’s, evolved under a wide variety of grazing and browsing animals; most of which are now extinct. It wasn’t all buffalo. Maintaining the diversity of intact grassland communities takes a lot of management and science" and "Keeping rangeland green with some kind of grass on it and conserving native grasslands with their flora and fauna are too completely different things, and yet Mr. Savory conflates the two" and "Summary – failing to distinguish between actual deserts and degraded grasslands, all in pursuit of a one-size-fits-all solution, means that you’re misleading yourself and others."
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Savory claimed, “the world's deserts are all human-caused, that they all were once grasslands, that they can and should be converted back to grasslands by the application of very large numbers of grazing livestock, and that his plan is the only way we as a global species could combat the effects of global warming caused by desertification.” All the world’s deserts were once grasslands>>>? Oh…. really…. every desert was once grassland>>>? He also claimed that “desertification is always caused by overgrazing”. Well…. that’s news to me too, TED Talk Teaches Us to Disparage the Desert | East CA | SoCal Focus | KCET. And…. according to Savory.... his way is the only way…. did anyone else find that beyond arrogant… or was it just me? It would have been nice if Savory had disclosed his funding sources but then.... his type never does. If he had.... we could all follow the $$$.... straight back to the “sustainable development” folk who want to keep tinkering with everything… on public AND private lands for power and profit.Big ouch, Adam Merberg on grazing and Allan Savory and TED » Pharyngula, “The frequent comment “but there used to be great herds of (bison or …) there, so it must be able to support grazing” overlooks a very significant thing – when a bison died, it was returned to the soil whence it came, or at least soil pretty nearby. It wasn’t shipped off to New York restaurants. A half-ton cow requires 2.5 to 10 tons of dry-weight feed to grow. Now admittedly cows are prodigious poopers, and lots of that mass will be returned to the soil, but any way you look at it a lot of nutrients from the soil won’t be returned….Using ruminants to reduce greenhouse gasses is, to be generous, a dubious idea….If you put a bunch of cattle into a grossly overgrazed area with little standing water, they will do one of two things: die of thirst or die of starvation. The work-around, of course, is to transport food and water to them, until the “magic” begins to happen…..Once cattle are introduced to an area, at least in North America, there will be huge resistance to getting them out. I can hear the cries for subsidies, should the experiments fail, from the ranchers now.”
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Liquid> Just like there are different subspecies of wolves filling ecological niches throughout North America.... there are different subspecies of bison. Down here in the lower 48 there once were.... still are in Canadian and now Alaskan forests.... 2 species of buffalo. The prairie or what we know as the American buffalo that kchd mentions that lived on prairies and plains and an eastern buffalo that lived in woodlands and forests. There are notable differences between the 2 species of bison because of co-evolutionary processes just like the physiological and morphological differences between the different species of wolves. Come to think of it... there was an eastern elk down in your neck of the woods too but that's now extinct. Where you are really was primarily temperate forest prior to the arrival of Europeans just like where I am was primarily wetlands…. things change. The woodland bison was once plentiful in Kentucky down into Tennessee. Unfortunately, we actually did wipe out their habitat and then hunted them into oblivion in no time flat so they’ve been long extirpated from your region. Here's how it happened so fast.... when a buffalo's affected by stress… be it an injury or whatever... it sends out a call. The others in the herd circle around it and when the "circling ducks" were all in the “sights”…. they were all easily shot. Ba bye woodland buffalo. Is what we’re doing to the Plains buffalo by letting the government and its stakeholders “manage” them by rounding em up so they can coexist with introduced cattle on public lands really any different than what we did to the woodland buffalo. Rhetorical question.
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ww> “All this mismanagement is because of the governmental (US & State) leadership.” Totally agree and…. they’re not going to stop until they’re behind bars or…. there’s no public lands left to “milk” for profit, Democrats Against Agenda 21, DEMOCRATS AGAINST U. N. AGENDA 21 - OK, So what is Agenda 21? And why should I care? Part 1. In 1992…. George H BUSH started the ball rolling. HE rolled out the red carpet so the UN could wheel in its Trojan “Environmental” Horse…. I think it’s time to go push it out into the ocean.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:17 PM   #12
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Well ya Liquidambar, I agree those hooves are cutting & mixing & compacting, as Mr. Savory clearly suggests creating a viable relationship between the existing ground and the new finish created by the herds. I think also that man, machines, chemicals, & yes 'organic growing practices' perform similar processes to what Mr. Savory suggests. This is probably why USA has been an agricultural leader in the world, but the sustainable practices are at times thrown out the window, often in a mega-agri way, and sometimes the learning curve is kind of hard to watch.

As we recall the great depression and the dust bowl drought that killed much life, the lesson was taught dramatically at that time: to practice on your land as if there is a drought on the horizon, maybe even a 10 year drought. I mean just as we saw a terrible drought last year 2012, and the year before brought much drought related loss also, I'm sure all of the USA farming is ripping away at the bare ground now...I wonder if there is such a thing as 'crop insurance bubble'?

It was reported last year in our local newspaper that drought stricken farmers where cutting trees to provide fodder for their cattle. In that situation, the hard lessons continue as the logs or post barely bring enough money to haul it to the mill, there is little profit to be made from firewood considering the amount of work required to process & haul it. I doubt there are any loggers in this county that actually chip the woody debris and feed it to the ground, rather if they do chip (and most don't) they load it, haul it, and sell it as pulp. Typically they just take the logs and leave the whole top untouched, this of course oxidizes as Mr. Savory teaches, this takes 3-4 years before the branches finally touch the dirt, because there is no machine chipping or trampling by cattle.

I guess the land owners rely on the fact that this is presently a humid climate, occasionally they will make an effort of pushing the debris along with topsoil into a ditch, or burning, these 'wind rows' provide some habitat, but to me they remind me of the recent destruction, not just the trees, but the ground. The sick thing is, they didn't haul all that debris to the row crop farm land, or a mulch facility, not even a hugelbed, typically it is just left as a wreck of the woods...bug food.

You make some good points Equilibrium, I don't know what to believe sometimes, but Mr. Savory did make a good point about Oxidation or Fire as primary causes to the ground cover/water depletion. He also was making a disturbing point that destroying 40,000 elephants was a mistake, I'm glad he at least mentioned, in passing, the unnumbered drum beating natives also displaced. Mr. Savory advocates over-grazing as practice, a forced feeding in the field that reminds me of the same force feeding practiced in the indoor factory farms. As we all should know, those animals are under some cruel mono-crop regimen.

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Old 04-28-2013, 05:43 PM   #13
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I don't understand how come we don't know the answer to this question - after all they have been grazing cattle/sheep/goats/camels/lamas/buffalo/elk even - like forever-- did I leave anything out? Water buffalo or even elephants - oh reindeer.

I know there are variables - like some years there is drought, other years cooler, or hotter but still we as a human race -- this one should be easy --on the human scale of observations-- easy!?. If we can't get this one right then we can not get anything right???? Well 40,000 elephants were culled and did you know that was the same number of people that died from using Vioxx? 40,000 people died from using with Vioxx (which Merck did by the way). Nope, not a big deal, people seem to barely know about it.

Displacing natives does not sound like a nice thing to do either

Seems like every generation is reinventing the wheel! I thought that was what we invented writing - so we could pass it all down.

OH, and the mention of Dust Bowl and Great Depression I often wonder why the Dust Bowl never gets blamed?

Why was there a Great Depression;
Well the government did not guarantee money would be safe in the banks and so there was a run on the banks, but now that can never happen. - I wonder if that is true? I sure hope so.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:46 AM   #14
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Recognize that Dr. Savory’s lofty goal parallels that of U.N.'s Agenda 21. Livestock grazing needs to end on public lands -- especially arid public lands.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
"It went against everything I had previously learned about land management/conservation and grazing." I'm with kchd.... it goes against everything I've learned about conservation too but even more so.... it goes against what I've experienced and see with my own 2 eyes and then.... I'm not finding any comparative studies. Where are actual comparative studies>>>?
Here's a review of comparative studies for ya. Interesting reading. Most bothersome to me was "[Savory] expressed doubt that holistic resource management could be validated experimentally..." That pretty much dooms his "method" to being accepted by the scientific community, by his own admission.
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

(Not sure if this link will allow free access to anyone/everyone. If not, let me know and I can post the pdf.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
Savory claimed, “
Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
the world's deserts are all human-caused, that they all were once grasslands, that they can and should be converted back to grasslands by the application of very large numbers of grazing livestock, and that his plan is the only way we as a global species could combat the effects of global warming caused by desertification.” All the world’s deserts were once grasslands>>>? Oh…. really…. every desert was once grassland>>>?
Yup, Lib, I took issue with this, too. Right off the top, the Sonoran desert comes to my mind, since that is a desert I visit yearly. It boggles the mind that an ecologist would say this. Did we somehow take it out of context? Because I can't reconcile it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:32 AM   #16
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QUOTE: "The world's deserts are all human -caused, that they all were once grasslands."

Yeah, I know I still can't get those quote boxes. My son says I don't want to learn, and that might be true.

I am somewhat confused about that part - of what Savory is saying-I am not sure he was saying that? He is from South Africa and even though he spoke English - he is from a different area, and he is some kind of scientist too and I think they - think they are allowed to make up words and phrases.

Savory said there are the humid areas all year long no problem with it becoming bare. Then he said there are areas that are humid for large portions of the year and then gets really dry-- the grasslands and from my understanding these are the areas that are going away and they are fighting for the most.

I know that years ago - I watched a documentary about the people living to the South of the Sahara deserts for centuries and only at the end of the 20ths century had the desert began to move south, and the people were having to move further and further south too. So I though he was talking about these kinds of areas. Is there not some lake in that region south of the Sahara that had been there like forever and now it is drying up???

And it was these kind of areas that he gave examples of the before and after pictures - farms in Mexico and those grasslands in South America. Perogolia region (I think) -- is that the area that they use to call the Pampas? He said that in those areas, after heavy grazing production was up. Could that be something that can be duplicated (science method)?
These are the regions he was saying people (like himself) were responsible for - in not understanding grazing of animals were important to the grasslands.

Then he used the term, most violent areas- and referred to the Horn of Africa and put up a map and circled the Sahara that was in 18:35 - I think?

He said that in the most "violent" - Driest areas of the world- food had to come from animals -- only -or 95%-of the diet came from animals. He said that people were really struggling for the survival of their families and for their culture. So, he was saying (I think) even in the most "violent" -- Driest areas -people were able to graze animals and survive, and had been doing so for centuries.

There were Native Americans that did live around the Sonoran Desert were there not, at one time? Probably the most resourceful smartest people can only live in these regions.

As always, what is on my mind is -- I wonder if these desert regions of 95% animals only --

Here we go: What are the diabetes rate since it is linked to the pituitary (responsible for stabilizing our blood sugar from the food we eat). I am pretty sure autism and mental illness are all linked to this too.

I noticed in Savory's circle that he drew on the map around 18:35 of the video- included Saudi Arabia -- one of the fastest growing populations of diabetics in the world.

Not only that but in this article
Diabetes in Africa - International Health Research Group

and it says that:

"In 2010, more than 12 million people in sub-Saharan Africa (SSA) were estimated to have diabetes. Over the next 20 years, it is predicted that SSA will have the greatest increase in diabetes prevalence of any region in the world. Thus diabetes is likely to be a major health problem, competing for limited resources"

What are they going to do about storing their insulin in a cool place -- I guess dig a hole.

What is going on? Are they changing their diets in the sub Sahara; if so then it is because higher carbohydrate food is being shipped in - like wheat and rice and sugar?

If they are still mostly herdsmen though and their diet is not changing then is the infiltration of vaccines into the area?

Either way; what will happen when the people in the Horn of Africa are gone? In nature something else will take over - a niche that is emptied will be filled by something else. Unless you have the great intellects go in and cull them out. What happened to the grasslands before there were (enough) really smart people to cull out herds?

Which brings me to thinking about the people who escape these regions and migrate from these areas to Europe and United States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/health/01autism.html?_r=0

In this article from the New York Times it says:
"Confirming the fears of Somali immigrants in Minneapolis, the Minnesota Health Department agreed Tuesday that young Somali children there appeared to have higher-than-usual rates of "

it goes on to say autism is 7 times higher in the children born of Somali immigrants in Minnesota. And in Sweden they too are reporting high rates among Somali schoolchildren in Stockholm.

A lot of people think it is the dark skin migrating north and less sunshine and less vitamin D, for when they have their immunizations - like the natives of Australian Aborigines (low vitamin C) they succumb to vaccines. As in the Aborigines they died or reacted almost immediately. That is another group of people that lived in the most violent areas.

The Somalians born in western society; these are kids whose parents are highly vaccinated - A price for entering our countries.

But if these people have been eating 95% animals for 1000s of years perhaps their pituitary is the less able to handle spikes in blood sugar. But wait; since it is also happening in their own country too -- well if vaccines is really to reduce the populations - which sometimes I wonder if it is not the case since it is hard to understand how those administering them could be so clueless -for the few people that are left -- they can get a job culling animals that retake these regions.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:59 PM   #17
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W_B> “Recognize that Dr. Savory’s lofty goal parallels that of U.N.'s Agenda 21.” FWIW…. I caught that and the conflict of interest. Nothing… and I do mean nothing I watched passed the “duck test” anyway. Stating that desertification has always been caused by overgrazing was my 1st red flag that he might be pushing pseudoscience off as actual science….. that would be welcomed with open arms by our “public servants” but I was convinced there was something really fishy going on when he stated that every desert was once grassland. “Greening” up every last desert so multinationals would be able to “experiment” in them…. would result in irreversible damage on this continent. My impression…. that was no public service announcement of good things coming our way…. that was a sales pitch… a carefully worded sales pitch supporting his “partners” need to stake claim to even more of our wilds in the name of “sustainable development”. Reality…. they know fewer of us will balk at land use changes or…. their associated price tags if…. they can bill what they want to do as an innovative, cost effective, eco-friendly form of carbon sequestration… I mean…. most folk when they think of deserts don’t think of them as teaming with life like the Sonora Desert…. they think of them as hostile vast wastelands of endless scorched sand dunes like the photo below… so why not spend billions of $$$s “researching” how to “green” them ALL up so the multinationals can swoop in like Superman and start feeding more starving people. That’s not my desert photo by the way… I snitched it online for the “educational” purposes.
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We’ve got how many “green” Atlanta International Airport sized industrial solar farms “planted” in OUR Sonora Desert right now that came into existence thanks to tax payer $$$ appropriated for their “greater” good with 34 more in the planning phase compliments of some very charismatic and persuasive people like him and their war against climate change that…. just happen to lead them to fame and fortune at the expense of the environment and I’m sure the multinationals are salivating at the prospect of getting their hands on even more taxpayer grants and subsidies to fund even more of their “green” projects with his “science”. Comparative studies… if actual comparative studies existed… wouldn’t support his “lofty” goals. What he’s proposing is NOT conservation…. it’s land exploitation for profit… greed…. pure and simple. I think people like him have done enough damage and the last thing I’d ever want to see would be him… or anyone like him…. getting his hooks into even larger swaths of ANY of our wilds for the benefit of ranchers…. then ultimately for multinationals….. which is the direction I feel he’s going…. incrementally of course…. so fewer of us feel compelled to start asking tough questions while they’re getting their foot wedged into the door.
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ww> “I don't know what to believe sometimes,” I can identify with your frustration.... I live in Illinois.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Liquid> “I don't understand how come we don't know the answer to this question - after all they have been grazing cattle/sheep/goats/camels/lamas/buffalo/elk even - like forever—“ We know the answer…. the 1% of the 1% of the 1% just don’t like it though…. there’s no $$$ to be made from it. People have been “farming” here with domesticated animals for several centuries…. nature has been “farming” with indigenous animals for millennia. Domesticated animals belong on private property…. not on public lands. I’m tired of all this destruction going on for their greater good where they’re gonna save us from the atrocities of global warming if…. we’ll just go along with anything they propose…. peacefully.
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Human health…. is profoundly affected by the health of the environment. The exploitation of the human race for profit needs to stop. I guess my position has been that we have a big time problem with our peer review process. It’s in desperate need of major overhauling. Clean up the process and we’ll all benefit exponentially from transparency. “Again, maybe it’s just me but I think we’re long over due for competing interests policies for authors AND editors AND reviewers. This would go a long way to restoring trust in the process so we can all follow the money. Maybe I’m in need of help understanding what’s so wrong with skepticism and controversy when it comes to my tax dollar being misappropriated for a greater good defined and reinforced by the power of suggestion,
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kchd> I can’t get to anything at your link but…. I’d already found some “thingies” referred to as “comparative” studies which….. weren’t exactly comparative but… then he did cover his bases now didn’t he when he acknowledged that it’d be extremely difficult validating holistic resource management experimentally. Sooooooooo…. all we have to do is “keep the faith” and BELIEVE in him like we do in Santa Claus and just toss a billion at his cause…. I’m sure he’d give it his all trying to “validate” his “science” by pock marking our wilds with even more pastures.
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I don’t get to go the Sonora Desert yearly…. in my dreams could I afford to do that because it’s 1 of the most beautiful places on earth but…. I’ve spent time there over the years and not just a day in and a day out…. more like weeks…. as in 2-3 weeks at a stretch from sun up to sun down…. the desert really comes to life at dusk and dawn….. which is why everything about this charlatan rubs me the wrong way…. it’s kinda obvious to me his “expertise” was bought and paid for a few times over.
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I’ve got an idea…. I’m thinking you’ll probably like it….. how about we leave OUR Sonora and OUR Mojave and OUR Chihuahuan deserts alone…. as in… hands off….no “greening” of any of them and no more tinkering with any living OR nonliving components of OUR deserts either…. Savory can go over and “experiment” somewhere in the Middle East using their tax payers’ $$$s.... then why don’t we get the cattle… and all those friggin’ wild mustangs and burros….. off ALL our public lands and onto private land where they belong. Why shell out $$$ “mimicking” nature with domesticated cattle that have this tendency of destroying riparian areas and reducing…. not increasing biodiversity….. when we could use what precious few resources we have left funding restoration programs that include bison breeding programs that would let buffalo roam free…. as nature originally intended? That’d be considerably more ecologically responsible than funding Savory’s “science” that merely “mimics” nature like he’s some sort of a permaculturist.
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"Did we somehow take it out of context? Because I can't reconcile it." Ummm.... there's nothing wrong with your interpretation..... or mine..... he said what he said plain as day. It's not reconcilable. You weren't supposed to "catch" that. Will you stop thinking for yourself!!!
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Nobody commented except me…..I felt like the odd man out and almost left Wildlife Gardeners for a while because of it, Mojave Desert kit foxes struck by virus.
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I gotta go back to work….. I just got paid to spend an hour “ranting” online and it feels soooooo good and I’m like sooooooo glad there are folk out there peeking behind the “curtain” but…. I feel guilt so hi ho hi ho…. it’s back to work I go!!!
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:14 AM   #18
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You don't mince words. Admirable.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:28 AM   #19
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Equil: You also must be one heck of a writer, if you can do all of this in a little bit like you did..

As you can see -- I spent an hour on what I wrote ( which I can't afford) and it makes not very much sense -- except in my own mind. I think I have gotten my thinking straighten out about it though.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #20
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Oh I am going to go over and comment on Foxes so you won't be hurt. It is though - I know so little about it.
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