The All-Native Edible Forest Garden: Eastern Forest Edition

[MrILoveTheAnts]

The All-Native Edible Forest Garden: Eastern Forest Edition - YouTube

I saw this video earlier today and though it would be nice to share. It's always nice to see a permaculture food forest garden embracing an all native spirit. Typically the first plant these people recommend is bamboo.

[Equilibrium]

OMG... I grow pretty much every plant he showcased except the Passiflora.... which I've tried growing a few times and failed!!! I sure do wish my running serviceberries would start running. I've never eaten any part of my Giant Solomom's Seal or my Toothwort.... they're too pretty to eat. I think 'Sparkle' is a cultivar of our native strawberry. Hogpeanut is a great ground cover that will come back every year!!! Great video. Up a little bit north of me there's a man who "practices" polyculture responsibly. He used to give tours of his property but hasn't in years which is a shame. I'm definitely with ya on the mainstream permaculturists!!! The bamboo they advocate planting is just the tip of the iceberg.

[jack]

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

OMG... I grow pretty much every plant he showcased except the Passiflora.... which I've tried growing a few times and failed!!! I sure do wish my running serviceberries would start running. I've never eaten any part of my Giant Solomom's Seal or my Toothwort.... they're too pretty to eat. I think 'Sparkle' is a cultivar of our native strawberry. Hogpeanut is a great ground cover that will come back every year!!! Great video. Up a little bit north of me there's a man who "practices" polyculture responsibly. He used to give tours of his property but hasn't in years which is a shame. I'm definitely with ya on the mainstream permaculturists!!! The bamboo they advocate planting is just the tip of the iceberg.

I've always thought that the concept behind permaculture was a good one. What ecologically conscientious folks dislike about it is the irresponsible practice of the theory. I like to compare it to the concept of making money: when a person gets a job and works it responsibility, it is for a good reason, as money is a necessity to live. When, however, a person is immoral or unjust in order to increase wealth, it is irresponsible and not to be condoned.

in the same way Permaculture can be a fine practice, as it advocates the intelligent use of available land to grow food while maintaining a healthy animal population to maintain pollination and an overall healthy environment. But, when that practitioner disregards the health of the pollinators and wildlife, and therefore the overall health of the land being worked, he is being irresponsible and his actions are not to be condoned.

All of us here, I would suggest, are into permaculture-to a degree. We attract wildlife and pollinators, recognizing their importance to a healthy overall property, and we grow food in the form of fruits and vegetables, etc. At least, that's my view.

[Equilibrium]

Define permaculture. Seems to me the mainstream permaculturists rob from others... repackage it and.... claim it as their own "invention" for their social movement. Hugelkultur is a perfect example. Hugelkultur (sp?) was "practiced" by Eastern Europeans for hundreds of years before they claimed it to make $$$ off of it certifying aspiring wannabes. Reality is.... much of what they're pushing isn't "sustainable" unless of course we're talking about "sustaining" their bank accounts and lifestyles. It's really a shame because there's so much turf out there in need of conversion to something more ecologically responsible.... like polyculture utilizing locally native species.
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Have you read this, 'Farmers of Forty Centuries' or.... John Robin Jenkins' 'The Road to Alto'? "The precipitant of this destruction was the building of a road, of only twelve kilometers, connecting Alto to the town of Monchique and thence by existing roads to the larger towns and cities of Portugal and the wide world beyond. Before this road was built in 1951, there was little movement of people or goods into or out of Alto and the surrounding country because the only link with the outside world was by rough donkey tracks – a thousand years old – to Monchique, a journey of three hours on a donkey or two hours on foot. Cork, medronho (the local firewater), and sweet chestnuts were the only things exported from Alto and, aside from a little iron for tools and donkey shoes from the mines of Aljustrel, seven days away to the north, and salt, rice, almonds, and cigarettes and a few other manufacturedgoods, all of which required donkey journeys of several days,the people of Alto were self-sufficient."

[dapjwy]

Very cool find! Thanks for sharing, MrILTA.

I am only part way through the video as I stopped to research the ground nut (Apios americana) and found this about the potential for domestication of it: Domestication of Apios americana

With Equil's comment of growing nearly all of the species listed, I feel like I have to get busy!

I do like the idea of having a supplemental source of food if needed...and, being rather picky, perhaps the groundnut is one I'd like to try to grow as food as well as flower/habitat builder.

[jack]

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

Define permaculture. Seems to me the mainstream permaculturists rob from others... repackage it and.... claim it as their own "invention" for their social movement. Hugelkultur is a perfect example. Hugelkultur (sp?) was "practiced" by Eastern Europeans for hundreds of years before they claimed it to make $$$ off of it certifying aspiring wannabes. Reality is.... much of what they're pushing isn't "sustainable" unless of course we're talking about "sustaining" their bank accounts and lifestyles. It's really a shame because there's so much turf out there in need of conversion to something more ecologically responsible.... like polyculture utilizing locally native species.
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Have you read this, 'Farmers of Forty Centuries' or.... John Robin Jenkins' 'The Road to Alto'? "The precipitant of this destruction was the building of a road, of only twelve kilometers, connecting Alto to the town of Monchique and thence by existing roads to the larger towns and cities of Portugal and the wide world beyond. Before this road was built in 1951, there was little movement of people or goods into or out of Alto and the surrounding country because the only link with the outside world was by rough donkey tracks – a thousand years old – to Monchique, a journey of three hours on a donkey or two hours on foot. Cork, medronho (the local firewater), and sweet chestnuts were the only things exported from Alto and, aside from a little iron for tools and donkey shoes from the mines of Aljustrel, seven days away to the north, and salt, rice, almonds, and cigarettes and a few other manufacturedgoods, all of which required donkey journeys of several days,the people of Alto were self-sufficient."

I downloaded the 130 page reference you recommend. Thanks!! Now, without getting into semantics, my understanding of permaculture is the practice of using land wisely in order to increase its yield. Increasing yield, as we know, requires plenty of pollinators and a healthy chain of native animals, carnivores and all, without which, real land health has again and again proven impossible. Hence, when permaculture technique is informed and responsible, it combines wildlife gardening with food gardening, all to effect the highest yield possible.

That's the "Jack" definition, , and when that definition is followed, I think it defines what many of us here try to do. In so far as traditional practices are, as you say, stolen, I think that all new movements build upon the shoulders of the movements before them. We express this idea frequently with the adage "There's no need to re-invent the wheel."

I'm intrigued about the link you included, as I couldn't tell by the excerpt whether the building of the roads was ultimately looked upon as a good or bad thing. I confess that there has always been a part of me that wishes I lived before Eisenhower's Highway Act...

[Equilibrium]

I was being facetious when I asked you to define permaculture. It's more that the American permaculturists have gotten into the "anything goes" mode so they can monetize traditional practices if that makes any sense.
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'The Road to Alto' is out of print. Amazon's got it used, Amazon.com: Road to Alto: An Account of Peasants, Capitalists and the Soil in the Mountains of Southern Portugal (9780861040766): Robin Jenkins: Books. I don't want to say anything about the road. I want you to read the book so you can tell me what you think. Gut tells me it will be 1 of those books that "sticks" with you for life.

[jack]

Originally Posted by Equilibrium

I was being facetious when I asked you to define permaculture. It's more that the American permaculturists have gotten into the "anything goes" mode so they can monetize traditional practices if that makes any sense.
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'The Road to Alto' is out of print. Amazon's got it used, Amazon.com: Road to Alto: An Account of Peasants, Capitalists and the Soil in the Mountains of Southern Portugal (9780861040766): Robin Jenkins: Books. I don't want to say anything about the road. I want you to read the book so you can tell me what you think. Gut tells me it will be 1 of those books that "sticks" with you for life.

Part 1/3 UMass Permaculture Documentary Series - YouTube

Part 1/3 UMass Permaculture Documentary Series - YouTube

[Equilibrium]

I don't know whether or not those kids will be incorporating any invasives into their permaculture designs or not down the road because they don't say.... they are all pumped about permaculture but they're just not "sharing" much other than their enthusiasm. The handful of permaculturists I respect are either Bill Mollison followers or those going it on their own utilizing almost exclusively native plants to avoid compromising any of the fragile ecosystems surrounding them. Maybe not the kids from U of M but for the most part, I've found the most outspoken American permaculturists to be the most ecologically irresponsible of the lot, Most inspiring books about home-scale food production, "It's really sad but.... I think of them all as 21st century tin men fast talking their way into good people's wallets at the expense of the environment" There's links to where mainstream permaculture in the US is discussed in several other threads here that would probably be worth your while reading if the subject really interests you.
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Good news is.... it's not just the folk here at WG, Something to think about: Toby Hemenway on Invasive Plants discussing permaculture's pseudoscience in the US. Folk elsewhere are starting to call them on the carpet for their reckless behavior, 'Native Plants and Wildlife Gardens - Invasive Plants in Permaculture', 06-15-2012 - Native Plants and Wildlife Gardens - Invasive Plants in Permaculture, "Ironically, the closing keynote speaker, Ben Falk, touted a brand of gardening – generally termed permaculture – which, in contrast to its many sensible practices, also recommends using plants that can spread far and fast if left untended, disrupting regional ecosystems, i.e. plants that are generally called invasive. The example I used was hardy kiwi: a staple of many permaculture plans, this vine has now thoroughly swallowed up large swaths of once-healthy forest in southern New England and the Midwest. I pointed out the odd contradiction between the movement’s lofty goals and this one clearly harmful practice.
In response to my post, Mr. Falk wrote a lengthy tirade against my “native fundamentalist” misconceptions, in which he extolled the many virtues of modern permaculture, and derided my out-dated “Nativistic War-On-Alien-Invader ideology.” That will take you all of like 2 minutes to read and goeshand in hand with my comments about their business practices in which "anyone who disagrees with them seems to be labeled the equivalent of an eco-racist."
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The article, 'NONNATIVE INVASIVES: A PROBLEM THAT CAN’T BE WISHED AWAY' by Katharine Gehron & Jenna Webster, Invasive Plants in Permaculture is reposted from somewhere else at the same website but the link includes replies to the article by a faithful Hemenway follower going by the name of jono neiger. He doesn' do so well so a few other groupies register so they can back him up.... they don't do do well either as some of their replies are basically cuts and pastes from other sites where they tried to defend American permaculture practices. You can see where they lose ground so Toby Hemengway himself come along to take charge. It's really pretty pathetic how they operate. The folk who run the site exercise restraint in challenging him but read the comments of a poster named in Beatriz Moisset in their entirety. Her comments are considerably more aggressive toward Hemengway and his "theories". That woman is spot on with this, "I said it before and I’ll say it again: FACTS! FACTS! FACTS!
Your point about invaders being indicators of degraded environments requires supporting data, as well as a few of your other comments. About hating invasives; this has nothing to do with it. Please read: “I do not Hate Invasive Species” http://nativeplantwildlifegarden.com/i-do-not-hate-invasive-species/.
Growing your own food and reducing the amount of land devoted to mega-agriculture is commendable. The issue here is that introduced species can cause serious damage to the environment. About forty percent of endangered species in the world are endangered because of non-natives. So, the continued use of introduced species is a monumental mistake. We don’t know which ones will become invasive and what their impact will be; so it is essential that we stop this practice. It is Russian roulette." They can't produce facts. They've never been able to produce any "science" and it's not exactly a lack of funding.
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I think McCarron's review of their "Bible" written by David Theodoropoulos (JL Hudson) is worth reading too, Invasion Biology: Critique of a Pseudoscience by David I. Theodoropoulos.